[2025-06-08T01:52:13Z] <midfavila> riteo for whatever reason i mentally group you in with kris_ and sewn lol
[2025-06-08T01:52:30Z] <midfavila> my brain just made that connection
[2025-06-08T01:52:31Z] <midfavila> ALSO
[2025-06-08T01:52:54Z] <midfavila> i swear to god, if i ever become prime minister or some shit, i'm banning personal automobiles for anyone who isn't elderly or disabled
[2025-06-08T01:53:12Z] <midfavila> i am SO sick of dealing with the externalities of other people's shitty decisions
[2025-06-08T01:53:18Z] <kris_> :finger_wag:
[2025-06-08T01:53:25Z] <midfavila> sick of people dealing with other people's externalities in general
[2025-06-08T01:53:31Z] <midfavila> kris_: silence, american
[2025-06-08T01:53:32Z] <midfavila> :gun:
[2025-06-08T01:53:44Z] <kris_> but how are people gonna get
[2025-06-08T01:53:57Z] <midfavila> crazy thing is,
[2025-06-08T01:54:01Z] <kris_> public transport usually adds unneeded delays to peoples travel
[2025-06-08T01:54:05Z] <kris_> which is annoying ngl
[2025-06-08T01:54:10Z] <midfavila> you only need a car to get places because said places are fuckin
[2025-06-08T01:54:14Z] <midfavila> a million light years away
[2025-06-08T01:54:17Z] <midfavila> so,
[2025-06-08T01:54:17Z] <kris_> this is factual
[2025-06-08T01:54:19Z] <midfavila> if we just,
[2025-06-08T01:54:22Z] <midfavila> take the thing,
[2025-06-08T01:54:25Z] <midfavila> and push it over there,
[2025-06-08T01:54:29Z] <midfavila> now you don't need a car
[2025-06-08T01:54:38Z] <midfavila> wild
[2025-06-08T01:54:39Z] <midfavila> i know
[2025-06-08T01:54:41Z] <kris_> waddabout bicycles
[2025-06-08T01:54:41Z] <midfavila> >:|
[2025-06-08T01:54:45Z] <midfavila> bicycles are goated
[2025-06-08T01:54:51Z] <midfavila> but shouldnt be necessary
[2025-06-08T01:55:07Z] <midfavila> cities and towns should be mandated to be designed with lowest common denominator mobility in mind
[2025-06-08T01:55:18Z] <kris_> i do agree w that
[2025-06-08T01:55:22Z] <midfavila> the thing is,
[2025-06-08T01:55:24Z] <midfavila> cars directly
[2025-06-08T01:55:27Z] <midfavila> and i do mean directly
[2025-06-08T01:55:29Z] <midfavila> prevent that
[2025-06-08T01:55:38Z] <midfavila> there was an essay on exactly this topic i read earlier today
[2025-06-08T01:55:42Z] <midfavila> uhhhh
[2025-06-08T01:55:49Z] <midfavila> "the ideology of the personal motorcar" or somesuch
[2025-06-08T01:55:50Z] <midfavila> one moment
[2025-06-08T01:56:15Z] <midfavila> https://unevenearth.org/2018/08/the-social-ideology-of-the-motorcar/
[2025-06-08T01:56:43Z] <midfavila> tl;dr cars inherently require winners and losers in order to be effective and when everyone has a car everyone loses as such
[2025-06-08T01:56:56Z] <midfavila> and this status quo is upheld because cabbidalism
[2025-06-08T01:57:17Z] <midfavila> the bicycle, public transit, etc, are like, pretty much inherently unprofitable 
[2025-06-08T01:57:24Z] <midfavila> (although they're trying, with newer bicycles)
[2025-06-08T01:57:57Z] <midfavila> hence under a capitalist system where companies and their profits are prioritised, unprofitable modes of transport are prohibited as much as possible
[2025-06-08T01:58:04Z] <midfavila> see: 
[2025-06-08T01:58:07Z] <midfavila> >underfunded pubtrans
[2025-06-08T01:58:11Z] <midfavila> >lack of safe bicycle infra
[2025-06-08T01:58:16Z] <midfavila> >inaccesible sidewalks 
[2025-06-08T01:58:23Z] <midfavila> >everything spread a million miles apart
[2025-06-08T01:58:31Z] <midfavila> >sidewalks sometimes not existing at all
[2025-06-08T01:58:43Z] <midfavila> >anywhere cars exist they almost always get a disproportionate share of the road
[2025-06-08T01:58:54Z] <kris_> mfw i walk on the side
[2025-06-08T01:58:55Z] <kris_> (of the road)
[2025-06-08T01:59:00Z] <kris_> if someone hits me i get to sue
[2025-06-08T01:59:01Z] <kris_> ezpz
[2025-06-08T01:59:01Z] <midfavila> american behaviour
[2025-06-08T01:59:10Z] <midfavila> a friend of mine from kentucky said his hometown has literally one sidewalk
[2025-06-08T01:59:12Z] <midfavila> lol
[2025-06-08T01:59:18Z] <midfavila> but seriously
[2025-06-08T01:59:20Z] <midfavila> it's fucked
[2025-06-08T01:59:20Z] <kris_> oh dude kentucky is so fucking primitive its insane
[2025-06-08T01:59:24Z] <kris_> they have not shit
[2025-06-08T01:59:29Z] <midfavila> like
[2025-06-08T01:59:38Z] <midfavila> everyone always bitches about the city being dirty and loud and cramped and shit
[2025-06-08T01:59:41Z] <midfavila> MAYBE
[2025-06-08T01:59:42Z] <midfavila> JUST MAYBE
[2025-06-08T01:59:55Z] <midfavila> IF YOU DIDN'T DEVOTE A THIRD OR MORE OF SPACE IN URBAN AREAS TO LAND YACHTS
[2025-06-08T02:00:07Z] <midfavila> IT WOULDN'T BE A LIVING NIGHTMARE TO EXIST OUTSIDE OF ONE
[2025-06-08T02:01:06Z] <midfavila> >think_mark.jpeg
[2025-06-08T02:01:13Z] <kris_> what if i actively want to live super far from the city
[2025-06-08T02:01:24Z] <midfavila> then you can pay the full cost required to service that area
[2025-06-08T02:01:29Z] <midfavila> (you can't)
[2025-06-08T02:01:39Z] <kris_> lame
[2025-06-08T02:01:48Z] <midfavila> such is life
[2025-06-08T02:01:55Z] <kris_> cities should be designed better yes but if i dont want to live in one i feel like that's my thing
[2025-06-08T02:02:11Z] * kris_ does not like being told where i can and can't live even though i kinda am anyway because have to have road
[2025-06-08T02:03:31Z] <midfavila> the existence of strict urban-rural areas is just another arbitrary hierarchy anyway
[2025-06-08T02:03:48Z] <kris_> you can't just iron out individuality like that
[2025-06-08T02:03:49Z] <midfavila> i think marx addresses that in his work about the concept of metabolic rift
[2025-06-08T02:03:53Z] <kris_> some people like me just do not like living in populated areas
[2025-06-08T02:03:53Z] <midfavila> bruv
[2025-06-08T02:03:58Z] <midfavila> listen to me
[2025-06-08T02:04:16Z] <midfavila> cities are only the way the are, i.e. hyper-dense areas, because that's what the economy demands
[2025-06-08T02:04:20Z] <midfavila> similarly,
[2025-06-08T02:04:43Z] <midfavila> rural regions are in the middle of fucking nowhere because that's what's necessary for things like resource extraction and agribusiness
[2025-06-08T02:04:51Z] <midfavila> if the load was distributed equitably,
[2025-06-08T02:05:01Z] <kris_> i understand that, but what i'm asking for here is proper full isolation, like put me 50 miles away from literally any other people
[2025-06-08T02:05:14Z] <midfavila> yes, well, you can go be a rugged individualist still, if you want
[2025-06-08T02:05:22Z] <midfavila> but then don't complain if you can't access the benefits of society
[2025-06-08T02:05:29Z] <kris_> i agree with that completely
[2025-06-08T02:05:51Z] <midfavila> you also shouldnt expect society to reorient itself to support your lifestyle because of its inherent inefficiency 
[2025-06-08T02:05:57Z] <midfavila> e.g. no gasoline subsidies
[2025-06-08T02:06:13Z] <midfavila> which america spends a shitload on
[2025-06-08T02:06:27Z] <midfavila> like, two dollars a gallon is not a normal price set by the market
[2025-06-08T02:06:38Z] <midfavila> or w/e it is in america
[2025-06-08T02:06:48Z] <kris_> idk really varies by location
[2025-06-08T02:06:59Z] <midfavila> also re: don't tell me what to do, that's like, life, man
[2025-06-08T02:07:08Z] <midfavila> civilisation is a group effort
[2025-06-08T02:07:28Z] <kris_> i *have* been called an uncle ted type.
[2025-06-08T02:07:32Z] <midfavila> hyperindividualism is the reason it's falling apart in parts of the west
[2025-06-08T02:07:40Z] * midfavila coughs loudly
[2025-06-08T02:07:41Z] <midfavila> ameica
[2025-06-08T02:07:43Z] <midfavila> america*
[2025-06-08T02:07:44Z] <kris_> and trust me, i fully agree with you, i had misinterpreted a previous statement you made
[2025-06-08T02:08:05Z] <midfavila> i mean to be fair ted had points
[2025-06-08T02:08:18Z] <kris_> he had a fuck ton of them
[2025-06-08T02:08:27Z] <midfavila> the enclosure of the benefits of automation and machinery by capital is one of the greatest tragedies of our history
[2025-06-08T02:08:39Z] <midfavila> there's another short book about this i need to read soon
[2025-06-08T02:08:54Z] <midfavila> tools for conviviality by ivan illich
[2025-06-08T02:09:10Z] <midfavila> part of the reason i fuckin despise cars is because they're isolating and alienating 
[2025-06-08T02:09:27Z] <midfavila> you put money in and you go and you don't have to DO anything
[2025-06-08T02:09:31Z] <midfavila> you don't have to be a fucking human
[2025-06-08T02:09:53Z] <midfavila> like maybe the reason everyone is so lonely in Da West:tm: is because we spend thousands of hours a year in our cars sneething
[2025-06-08T02:09:57Z] <kris_> an important thing you need to know about me is that i fundamentally dislike humans
[2025-06-08T02:10:01Z] <kris_> in general
[2025-06-08T02:10:13Z] <midfavila> have you ever left america tho
[2025-06-08T02:10:14Z] <kris_> there are a handful of people i like and want to talk to but it's *incredibly* rare
[2025-06-08T02:10:22Z] <kris_> no i have not, i base this entirely on my own experience
[2025-06-08T02:10:25Z] <midfavila> bc like
[2025-06-08T02:10:27Z] <midfavila> america is weird
[2025-06-08T02:10:35Z] <midfavila> it's a liminal space
[2025-06-08T02:10:48Z] <midfavila> you should visit canada 
[2025-06-08T02:10:52Z] <kris_> well, i'm incredibly american, we don't like eachother
[2025-06-08T02:10:53Z] <kris_> at all
[2025-06-08T02:11:11Z] <kris_> i've had a better time talking to europeans than i have americans though so it might just be here that i can't stand people
[2025-06-08T02:11:26Z] <midfavila> ye prolly bc the american system grinds people into paste and then shits on them
[2025-06-08T02:11:32Z] <midfavila> so everyone is always whiteknuckling through life
[2025-06-08T02:11:37Z] <midfavila> instead of just ~vibing~
[2025-06-08T02:11:52Z] <midfavila> people in saskatchewan are like that, at least by my standards
[2025-06-08T02:11:58Z] <midfavila> they're always so fucking
[2025-06-08T02:12:01Z] <midfavila> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
[2025-06-08T02:12:08Z] <midfavila> GOGOGOGOGOGOGOOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGO
[2025-06-08T02:12:12Z] <kris_> a huge chunk of my good close friends are british
[2025-06-08T02:12:19Z] <kris_> and ive been told by them that i seem like i belong there rather than here
[2025-06-08T02:12:21Z] <kris_> whatever that says
[2025-06-08T02:12:34Z] * midfavila bigshrugs
[2025-06-08T02:12:55Z] <midfavila> https://www.equinoxpub.com/home/tools-conviviality/
[2025-06-08T02:12:59Z] <midfavila> kris_
[2025-06-08T02:13:10Z] <kris_> but it's rare that i have an interaction with your typical normal american, specifically people OUR age, where i'm not thinking to myself "wow, i really wish you'd shut the fuck up and walk away from me"
[2025-06-08T02:13:21Z] <kris_> well and boomers
[2025-06-08T02:13:29Z] <kris_> gen X or whatever people are usually fine
[2025-06-08T02:13:30Z] <midfavila> >boom*rs
[2025-06-08T02:14:03Z] <midfavila> idk i'm at a point where i just can't cope with most people, at least in SK
[2025-06-08T02:14:19Z] <midfavila> quebecois and maritimers are chill
[2025-06-08T02:14:19Z] <kris_> i don't think individuality is something we really have in the US anyway
[2025-06-08T02:14:22Z] <kris_> at most it's an illusion
[2025-06-08T02:14:24Z] <midfavila> no, it's not
[2025-06-08T02:14:25Z] <midfavila> yes, it is
[2025-06-08T02:14:41Z] <kris_> you go out in public or into a job type context and everyone has to mask incredibly hard and water themselves down because otherwise they're gonna lose their job or w/e
[2025-06-08T02:14:44Z] <midfavila> america's entire culture is about flattening people into mere units of labour
[2025-06-08T02:14:45Z] <midfavila> yeah
[2025-06-08T02:14:45Z] <kris_> or be cast out of their social group
[2025-06-08T02:14:46Z] <kris_> or otherwise
[2025-06-08T02:14:56Z] <kris_> everything is so horrifically artificial
[2025-06-08T02:14:56Z] <midfavila> it's all about being a maximally productive wagie
[2025-06-08T02:15:06Z] <midfavila> it's creeping into canada more and more and i can't stand it
[2025-06-08T02:15:10Z] <midfavila> SPEAKING OF,
[2025-06-08T02:15:16Z] <midfavila> there's ANOTHER book that talks about this
[2025-06-08T02:15:34Z] <midfavila> even if it has some shitty takes because it's written by a neoliberal
[2025-06-08T02:15:35Z] <midfavila> uhhhhhh
[2025-06-08T02:15:42Z] <midfavila> mcworld versus jihad i think
[2025-06-08T02:15:46Z] <kris_> they call me The Social Libertarian
[2025-06-08T02:15:46Z] <midfavila> unfortunate title, good book
[2025-06-08T02:16:00Z] <midfavila> libertarians are just lame anarchists
[2025-06-08T02:16:04Z] <midfavila> sorry not sorry
[2025-06-08T02:16:34Z] <midfavila> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad_vs._McWorld
[2025-06-08T02:16:44Z] <kris_> some things need to be regulated mid
[2025-06-08T02:16:44Z] <midfavila> very much an oof yikes name
[2025-06-08T02:16:52Z] <kris_> and anarchy cant exist because of human nature etc
[2025-06-08T02:17:05Z] <midfavila> but basically it discusses the contradiction of modern western liberal capitalism and traditional modes of living throughout the word
[2025-06-08T02:17:08Z] <midfavila> world
[2025-06-08T02:17:10Z] <kris_> you're always going to end up with groups of people that have their own cultural rules and expectations because that's just how shit works
[2025-06-08T02:17:18Z] <midfavila> kris_: i will actually bully you if you go "muh hooman nature" on me
[2025-06-08T02:17:20Z] <midfavila> i swear to god
[2025-06-08T02:17:24Z] <midfavila> >:C
[2025-06-08T02:17:28Z] <kris_> what if i like being bullied
[2025-06-08T02:17:29Z] <kris_> :3
[2025-06-08T02:17:33Z] <midfavila> doesn't matter
[2025-06-08T02:17:55Z] <midfavila> going to cross the border on my bicycle and find you and suplex you into the sun
[2025-06-08T02:17:58Z] <midfavila> stg
[2025-06-08T02:18:10Z] <midfavila> human "nature" doesn't fucking exist
[2025-06-08T02:18:14Z] <midfavila> and it hasn't for thousands of years
[2025-06-08T02:18:27Z] <midfavila> the way people act is informed by the culture within which they are raised
[2025-06-08T02:18:29Z] <midfavila> full stop
[2025-06-08T02:19:11Z] <kris_> the problem here is that sure you can wipe the slate clean and boil things down to just fundamental human 
[2025-06-08T02:19:20Z] <kris_> the moment you have a group of people they're going to eventually develop some form of entropy
[2025-06-08T02:19:24Z] <midfavila> if you exist within a culture that's hypercompetitive, hyperindividualist, consumerist, etc,
[2025-06-08T02:19:28Z] <midfavila> of course you're going to be all of those things
[2025-06-08T02:19:42Z] <midfavila> honestly i think the only thing that might be universal is like
[2025-06-08T02:19:49Z] <midfavila> being lazy
[2025-06-08T02:19:52Z] <midfavila> and wanting to avoid pain
[2025-06-08T02:19:59Z] <kris_> fundamentally human nature isnt a thing but people are going to develop the behavior i'm trying to talk about
[2025-06-08T02:20:02Z] <midfavila> which is really just generalised laziness
[2025-06-08T02:20:05Z] <kris_> and how do you prevent that
[2025-06-08T02:20:05Z] <kris_> yk
[2025-06-08T02:20:22Z] <midfavila> how do you prevent that? by destroying the systems that promote and enable it
[2025-06-08T02:20:29Z] <midfavila> easier said than done of course
[2025-06-08T02:20:58Z] <midfavila> but like, if you ensure everyone is guaranteed a minimum standard of living that's dignified, safe, secure, etc, like, people aren't going to fight over a loaf of bread
[2025-06-08T02:21:01Z] <midfavila> that's stupid
[2025-06-08T02:21:06Z] <kris_> so what if someones mom doesnt like XYZ
[2025-06-08T02:21:08Z] <kris_> the kid then doesnt like XYZ
[2025-06-08T02:21:10Z] <midfavila> if there's scarcity, people will compete for resources
[2025-06-08T02:21:11Z] <kris_> their kids then don't like XYZ
[2025-06-08T02:21:15Z] <kris_> you see what im saying
[2025-06-08T02:21:17Z] <midfavila> yes
[2025-06-08T02:21:18Z] <midfavila> i do
[2025-06-08T02:21:24Z] <midfavila> that's why public education exists
[2025-06-08T02:21:27Z] * midfavila snffs
[2025-06-08T02:21:39Z] <midfavila> frankly why it exists under capitalism too
[2025-06-08T02:21:50Z] <midfavila> literally just a way to convince people to pay for their own indoctrination 
[2025-06-08T02:21:54Z] <midfavila> cops are the same shit
[2025-06-08T02:22:00Z] <midfavila> convincing the inmates to pay the guards
[2025-06-08T02:22:37Z] <kris_> cops will always be fundamentally terrible people to me
[2025-06-08T02:22:43Z] <midfavila> they're class traitors 
[2025-06-08T02:22:45Z] <midfavila> full stop
[2025-06-08T02:23:04Z] <midfavila> they willingly enlist themselves into the service of capital
[2025-06-08T02:23:08Z] <midfavila> and only exist to enforce its rule
[2025-06-08T02:23:25Z] <midfavila> the only good cops are people who left willingly and fictional cops
[2025-06-08T02:23:37Z] <midfavila> and the k9s 
[2025-06-08T02:23:51Z] <midfavila> i saw a video a while back of an american cop beating a citizen so hard the k9 turned on its handler
[2025-06-08T02:24:04Z] <midfavila> Freedom:tm:
[2025-06-08T02:24:09Z] <midfavila> Liberty:r:
[2025-06-08T02:24:40Z] <midfavila> anyway brb
[2025-06-08T13:20:59Z] <sewn> sadplan: where did the underscore go
[2025-06-08T16:33:07Z] <sadplan> oh, it seems i got reconnected
[2025-06-08T16:34:16Z] <sad_plan> hm, wierd. it seems to only have happened to libera