[2025-06-10T01:21:25Z] <riteo> actually
[2025-06-10T01:21:34Z] <riteo> probably the most kiss thing would be gemini
[2025-06-10T01:21:55Z] <riteo> which is actually a tad more "modern" ("bloated" if you must) but with some nice features like encryption and whatnot
[2025-06-10T01:22:09Z] <riteo> gopher is way more old school and, from what I understand, more like slackware
[2025-06-10T01:31:00Z] <midfavila> i'm like 99.99% sure there's an encryption extension in gopher's RFCs
[2025-06-10T01:31:02Z] <midfavila> fwiw
[2025-06-10T01:31:45Z] <kiedtl> gophers:// yeah
[2025-06-10T01:31:56Z] <kiedtl> Gemini's main thing imo is gemtext
[2025-06-10T01:32:07Z] <kiedtl> and client certs, allowing minimal session support without losing privacy
[2025-06-10T01:33:18Z] <kiedtl> Just for the record: I hate gemtext. But compared to gopher's index files its just incredible
[2025-06-10T01:39:06Z] <midfavila> maybe i'm quixotic :P
[2025-06-10T01:57:36Z] <riteo> I mean
[2025-06-10T01:57:36Z] <riteo> also
[2025-06-10T01:57:38Z] <riteo> UTF-8
[2025-06-10T01:57:46Z] <riteo> IIRC gopher did not support that or is there an extension
[2025-06-10T01:58:05Z] <riteo> BTW no worries neither is meant to step into eachother toes
[2025-06-10T01:58:31Z] <riteo> they can and should coexist fine, it's not like they're very resource intensive, worst case you can serve for both protocols :P
[2025-06-10T02:15:23Z] <kiedtl> I kinda feel like that's a fallacy there
[2025-06-10T02:15:56Z] <kiedtl> I mean yes, they can coexist but the effort put into serving for both protocols, writing content in a format that can compile to gemtext + gopher is better spent elsewhere
[2025-06-10T02:16:30Z] <kiedtl> of course it's up each person which they prefer, gopher or gemini. It kinda doesn't matter that much which is picked, given most gemini browsers support both
[2025-06-10T02:44:44Z] <riteo> I don't know gopher's text format but I'd argue that you could probably take the lowest common denominator and use that
[2025-06-10T02:44:55Z] <riteo> like, dunno, gemtext to gopher and html
[2025-06-10T02:45:23Z] <riteo> I think that at least a few "polyglot" gemini capsules actually do that
[2025-06-10T02:46:28Z] <riteo> hell, there are definitely ways of converting simple HTML to gemtext. IIRC ploum eventually converted its whole blog from html to gemini and to overcome the one link per line limitation they simply repeated its text after the relevant paragraph as a new link
[2025-06-10T02:47:54Z] <riteo> I'd argue that the effort would be minimal if any, when starting from a clean base, especially since the relevant software definitely exists in one form or the other
[2025-06-10T02:50:47Z] <kiedtl> Yeah but that's another layer of complexity to manage
[2025-06-10T02:51:13Z] <kiedtl> Also, for HTML <-> Gemtext it's even worse. Images, links, etc might be fairly simple but once you get to tables it kinda sucks
[2025-06-10T02:55:38Z] <riteo> yea ik
[2025-06-10T02:56:13Z] <riteo> but like gemtext is terribly trivial and you probably still want HTML tbh
[2025-06-10T02:56:17Z] <riteo> so like you're still gonna convert it sometime
[2025-06-10T02:56:31Z] <riteo> even if that means simply hosting a special gemini->http proxy (they exist)
[2025-06-10T02:57:41Z] <riteo> so I still think that this "complexity" is way less than it looks like
[2025-06-10T03:04:44Z] <midfavila> riteo: wouldn't utf-8 be a client thing
[2025-06-10T03:05:15Z] <midfavila> like it's all bits at a technical level. it's just a matter of how they're interpreted
[2025-06-10T03:05:19Z] <midfavila> correct me if i'm wrong
[2025-06-10T03:05:45Z] <midfavila> also i think gophernicus goes out of its way to support utf-8??
[2025-06-10T03:05:47Z] <midfavila> let me check
[2025-06-10T03:05:55Z] <midfavila> https://github.com/gophernicus/gophernicus
[2025-06-10T03:06:02Z] <midfavila> ye
[2025-06-10T03:06:50Z] <midfavila> does tls and utf-8 and etc
[2025-06-10T03:06:54Z] <midfavila> cgi 
[2025-06-10T03:07:02Z] <midfavila> very fancy tbqh
[2025-06-10T09:27:15Z] <sad_plan> to chime in on the gopher stuff, iirc, z3bra has his phroxy, a proxy between gopher and regular browsers. so any modern browser can in this case access his gopher site. might be some kind of compromise perhaps? to not lock people out of viewing it
[2025-06-10T09:27:47Z] <sad_plan> https://git.z3bra.org/phroxy/log.html
[2025-06-10T09:30:09Z] <sad_plan> to be more precise, he calls it gopher to http proxy really. but in reality it works like I said. access gopher site on regular browsers
[2025-06-10T10:51:26Z] <riteo> yea
[2025-06-10T10:51:59Z] <riteo> I'm aware of those proxy, that's why I'm saying that it's really easy to have drop-in compatibility for all protocols
[2025-06-10T11:09:32Z] <phoebos> I mean the community website is made from .md or .txt sources, which are also available over http. It would make more sense to proxy http over gopher to serve them, but obviously that's pointless
[2025-06-10T11:09:52Z] <phoebos> but whatever encourages people to write more is good :)
[2025-06-10T11:10:34Z] <phoebos> CGI is already running on the community site for the search (/cgi-bin/search)
[2025-06-10T13:18:20Z] <riteo> midfavila: I think that gopher does not define the encoding?
[2025-06-10T13:18:41Z] <riteo> Looking online it looks like utf-8 is an "extra" feature, not something you can really expect from every client, so I suppose it's out of spec perhaps?
[2025-06-10T13:38:37Z] <kiedtl|town> Do you think we should have a "proper" Zig package in core/extra, along with nodejs/rust/python
[2025-06-10T13:40:49Z] <phoebos> those are only in repo for the sake of firefox
[2025-06-10T13:42:52Z] <kiedtl|town> fair
[2025-06-10T14:23:27Z] <sewn> proper zig package? in your dreams
[2025-06-10T14:23:42Z] <sewn> have to stick to zig-bin 
[2025-06-10T14:29:03Z] <midfavila> yeah it's out of spec but that's also because gopher hasn't been touched in like, what, thirty years? riteo :P
[2025-06-10T14:29:07Z] <midfavila> also gm kiss
[2025-06-10T14:31:02Z] <midfavila> also, remind me to figure out how to add MAM to pidgin's xmpp client
[2025-06-10T14:31:24Z] <midfavila> i need to futz with omemo too... there are some weird edgecases with certain clients on the other end
[2025-06-10T14:31:53Z] <midfavila> >aside from it not working half the time and being impossible to set up, it's great!
[2025-06-10T16:10:08Z] <kiedtl|town> sewn: why?
[2025-06-10T17:10:05Z] <sewn> kiedtl|town: have you ever tried bootstrapping zit
[2025-06-10T17:10:07Z] <sewn> zig
[2025-06-10T17:11:26Z] <midfavila> >zit
[2025-06-10T17:11:28Z] <midfavila> lol
[2025-06-10T18:15:56Z] <sewn> shush
[2025-06-10T18:16:16Z] <midfavila> no
[2025-06-10T18:16:26Z] <midfavila> i'm going to bully you and you're going to put up with it
[2025-06-10T18:16:27Z] <midfavila> :#
[2025-06-10T18:16:28Z] <midfavila> :3
[2025-06-10T18:16:34Z] * midfavila headpats
[2025-06-10T18:17:07Z] <sewn> uwu
[2025-06-10T20:09:05Z] <midfavila> climate change is attacking SDF
[2025-06-10T20:09:06Z] <midfavila> qwq
[2025-06-10T20:09:54Z] <midfavila> apparently seattle is under an unusual heat warning and that's caused one of the fans to fail on account of running harder. wouldn't be surprised if that happens more often
[2025-06-10T20:09:57Z] <midfavila> wah
[2025-06-10T20:10:12Z] <kris_> time to selfhost
[2025-06-10T20:11:50Z] <midfavila> >selfhost on SDF
[2025-06-10T20:11:52Z] <midfavila> >fan die
[2025-06-10T20:11:55Z] <midfavila> >cry
[2025-06-10T20:12:03Z] <midfavila> ig i could do it all in my flat
[2025-06-10T20:12:21Z] <midfavila> but then my breaker is going to pop the second my neighbour turns on his friggin enormous CR
[2025-06-10T20:12:24Z] <midfavila> CRT
[2025-06-10T20:12:26Z] <kris_> i'm not looking forward to the next few days
[2025-06-10T20:12:42Z] <midfavila> que?
[2025-06-10T20:12:42Z] <kris_> kinda reevaluating running void everywhere because package updates are not well tested anymore
[2025-06-10T20:12:48Z] <midfavila> run kiss
[2025-06-10T20:12:48Z] <midfavila> :3
[2025-06-10T20:12:50Z] <midfavila> :33333333333
[2025-06-10T20:12:52Z] <kris_> you're funny
[2025-06-10T20:13:02Z] <midfavila> you WILL smooch the computer
[2025-06-10T20:13:05Z] <midfavila> you MUST
[2025-06-10T20:13:09Z] <kris_> i've shit on alpine infinitely for much less than this
[2025-06-10T20:24:35Z] <sewn> I used kiss as a server once
[2025-06-10T20:24:46Z] <sewn> ...awful
[2025-06-10T20:24:54Z] <sewn> kris_: use chimera use chimera use chimera
[2025-06-10T20:25:50Z] <kris_> sewn i'm not using something that is still that in-development
[2025-06-10T20:26:10Z] <sewn> what kind of bullshit is a in-development
[2025-06-10T20:26:20Z] <sewn> it doesn't have stable releases
[2025-06-10T20:26:44Z] <sewn> technically void is also "in-development"
[2025-06-10T20:26:54Z] <kris_> not what i meant
[2025-06-10T20:26:59Z] <kris_> the software stack void uses is kinda hard set, idk about chimera
[2025-06-10T20:27:07Z] <kris_> like no time ago at all they were using scudo for the malloc lol
[2025-06-10T20:27:53Z] <kris_> anyway idk what i'm going to do
[2025-06-10T20:27:56Z] <sewn> why is this a concern
[2025-06-10T20:27:57Z] <kris_> probably just hope things stop getting broken
[2025-06-10T20:28:13Z] <kris_> and/or hope things start being tested like they used to be
[2025-06-10T20:28:48Z] <midfavila> wont happen lol
[2025-06-10T20:28:54Z] <midfavila> turnaround time is all that matters these days
[2025-06-10T20:29:21Z] <kris_> void is not a corporate thing
[2025-06-10T20:29:26Z] <kris_> i dont think turnaround time is a concern
[2025-06-10T20:29:32Z] <midfavila> and yet it exists in a corporate-influenced space
[2025-06-10T20:29:33Z] <midfavila> curious
[2025-06-10T20:29:37Z] <midfavila> :thinking:
[2025-06-10T20:29:39Z] <kris_> does it?
[2025-06-10T20:29:43Z] <midfavila> yes?
[2025-06-10T20:29:44Z] <kris_> if it did id be shocked
[2025-06-10T20:29:57Z] <midfavila> open source and free software have both been co-opted by corporations as sources of free labour
[2025-06-10T20:30:13Z] <kris_> i cant imagine any company out there is using void for anything
[2025-06-10T20:30:20Z] <midfavila> even if the product in question isn't corporate, that culture is still influential in terms of so-called best practices
[2025-06-10T20:30:26Z] <midfavila> you're not paying attention to knock-on effects
[2025-06-10T20:30:34Z] <kris_> void is like the least corporate thing ive ever seen
[2025-06-10T20:30:36Z] <kris_> there's not even a structure to it
[2025-06-10T20:30:39Z] <midfavila> >kiss
[2025-06-10T20:30:39Z] <kris_> loosely directed anarchy
[2025-06-10T20:30:51Z] <midfavila> but anyway, my point remains
[2025-06-10T20:31:11Z] <midfavila> there's not much that i've seen that hasn't been affected by changing attitudes over time
[2025-06-10T20:31:28Z] * midfavila just sort of rubs the back of his neck and shrugs
[2025-06-10T20:31:33Z] <midfavila> shit's shit
[2025-06-10T20:33:49Z] <midfavila> you know what isn't though? my new tea
[2025-06-10T20:33:54Z] <midfavila> it's ~maple cream~
[2025-06-10T20:33:59Z] <midfavila> very fancy
[2025-06-10T20:34:06Z] <kris_> i'd say the most corporate distro ive seen that's in our ballpark is alpine
[2025-06-10T20:34:12Z] <midfavila> oh for sure
[2025-06-10T20:34:17Z] <midfavila> alpine is just >i heard you like containers
[2025-06-10T20:34:36Z] <midfavila> god i hate containers
[2025-06-10T20:34:44Z] <kris_> i ran it for a while there on everything until they lied about the XZ backdoor situation
[2025-06-10T20:34:49Z] <midfavila> "our product can't run anywhere outside of our environment so let's just ship the entire environment!!!!!!!!!!"
[2025-06-10T20:35:08Z] * midfavila facedesks. midfavila facedesks. midfavila facedesks. 
[2025-06-10T20:35:19Z] <kris_> containers are ok
[2025-06-10T20:35:24Z] <kris_> its just an easy way to sandbox shit
[2025-06-10T20:35:25Z] <midfavila> hard disagree
[2025-06-10T20:35:29Z] * midfavila sniffs
[2025-06-10T20:35:30Z] <kris_> i dont use things like docker though
[2025-06-10T20:35:31Z] <kris_> i use just incus
[2025-06-10T20:35:36Z] <kris_> which are more or less virtual machines that are actually not
[2025-06-10T20:35:39Z] <kris_> behaviorally
[2025-06-10T20:35:44Z] <midfavila> doesn't linux support namespaces?
[2025-06-10T20:35:53Z] <kris_> that's pretty much how containers work lol
[2025-06-10T20:36:11Z] <midfavila> containers tend to imply a bunch of other shit though. 
[2025-06-10T20:36:16Z] <midfavila> at least afaik.
[2025-06-10T20:36:47Z] <kris_> either way
[2025-06-10T20:36:54Z] <kris_> what i really want is to not change anything and have this stop being an issue
[2025-06-10T20:37:00Z] <kris_> but i don't know if there's a way to get that 
[2025-06-10T20:37:05Z] * midfavila whispers
[2025-06-10T20:37:06Z] <midfavila> kiss linux
[2025-06-10T20:37:11Z] <kris_> that means changing things
[2025-06-10T20:37:20Z] <midfavila> not once you get your setup figured out
[2025-06-10T20:37:21Z] <midfavila> :3
[2025-06-10T20:37:33Z] <midfavila> just saying~
[2025-06-10T20:37:35Z] <kris_> idk kiss is too much undefined
[2025-06-10T20:37:47Z] <midfavila> that's why you define it yourself
[2025-06-10T20:37:51Z] <midfavila> and then you're happy
[2025-06-10T20:37:55Z] <midfavila> and it's good
[2025-06-10T20:38:09Z] <kris_> and where are you getting the motivation to babysit your OS
[2025-06-10T20:38:26Z] <kris_> i mean i guess i'm kinda doing that anyway because when shit breaks i have to downgrade packages and whatnot
[2025-06-10T20:38:28Z] <midfavila> sheer unbridled writhing hatred 
[2025-06-10T20:38:30Z] <kris_> and HOPE that xbps actually kept the old version around
[2025-06-10T20:38:34Z] <midfavila> see
[2025-06-10T20:38:37Z] <kris_> xbps is supposed to be caching old versions of packages specifically for this reason
[2025-06-10T20:38:41Z] <kris_> and sometimes it just.. doesnt?
[2025-06-10T20:38:44Z] <kris_> it's hit or miss
[2025-06-10T20:38:46Z] <midfavila> kiss looks like a pain but once it's set up it's super gomfy
[2025-06-10T20:39:07Z] <kris_> what *is* the kiss package build environment anyway
[2025-06-10T20:39:13Z] <kris_> is it a chroot or is it done quite literally raw
[2025-06-10T20:39:34Z] <midfavila> it's done raw under a temp directory
[2025-06-10T20:39:38Z] <kris_> laaame
[2025-06-10T20:39:42Z] <midfavila> if you're concerned you can build it in a chroot tho
[2025-06-10T20:39:42Z] <kris_> okay, im gonna have to fix that
[2025-06-10T20:39:52Z] <midfavila> just extract a copy of the rootfs, chroot, and build the package
[2025-06-10T20:39:54Z] * midfavila bigshrugs
[2025-06-10T20:39:55Z] <kris_> which leads me to say what i was the other day with just finishing my build system and package manager
[2025-06-10T20:40:00Z] <kris_> because that should all be automated
[2025-06-10T20:40:03Z] <midfavila> that's usually what i do 
[2025-06-10T20:40:20Z] <midfavila> and honestly if you were to use something like expect you could pretty easily do that automatically
[2025-06-10T20:40:24Z] <kris_> and i don't really have a desire for things that are source based
[2025-06-10T20:40:40Z] <kris_> like yeah you get to disable stuff but there's no point
[2025-06-10T20:40:57Z] <kris_> like system specific optimizations kinda irritate me as a concept
[2025-06-10T20:41:03Z] <kris_> outside of embedded
[2025-06-10T20:41:52Z] <kris_> anyway i have some thonking to do about implementation of my package manager anyway
[2025-06-10T20:41:59Z] <midfavila> idk source based just werks
[2025-06-10T20:42:03Z] <kris_> i had a build system written but scrapped it because in that amount of time i had decided that hard depending on bash is illogical
[2025-06-10T20:42:07Z] <midfavila> i've never had like, dependency hell or anything
[2025-06-10T20:42:22Z] <kris_> ive only had issues with dependencies on debian
[2025-06-10T20:42:26Z] <midfavila> and unless you're building firefox every two seconds compiling everything takes no time at all
[2025-06-10T20:42:29Z] <midfavila> yeah fuck debian
[2025-06-10T20:42:32Z] <midfavila> all my homies hate debian
[2025-06-10T20:42:34Z] <kris_> oh id never run firefox raw anyway
[2025-06-10T20:42:39Z] <kris_> flatpak is the only reasonable solution
[2025-06-10T20:42:45Z] <kris_> things like that should always be sandboxed
[2025-06-10T20:42:55Z] <midfavila> im just not going to use it in the future
[2025-06-10T20:42:59Z] <midfavila> the web is dead
[2025-06-10T20:45:37Z] <kris_> meh
[2025-06-10T20:53:34Z] <midfavila> hey
[2025-06-10T20:53:35Z] <midfavila> btw
[2025-06-10T20:53:51Z] <midfavila> do any of you know how to get into a hard drive on its last legs to recover some data?
[2025-06-10T20:54:14Z] <midfavila> the pc i have at home has got an old HDD in it and for whatever reason the BIOS can read LILO off it and like, boot linux and shit
[2025-06-10T20:54:28Z] <midfavila> but then linux can't see the hard drive 
[2025-06-10T20:54:30Z] <midfavila> at all
[2025-06-10T20:55:17Z] <midfavila> i've booted off a USB and there was some stuff in dmesg about the disk's controller not responding in time, which didn't alleviate after trying other sata ports, other sata cables, reseating connections, and trying other power cables
[2025-06-10T20:55:34Z] <midfavila> there's also no unusual clicking or grinding from the drive
[2025-06-10T20:56:49Z] <kris_> if the drive controller is dead you're probably not going to get very far
[2025-06-10T20:57:06Z] <kris_> it is weird that it can boot though
[2025-06-10T20:57:06Z] <midfavila> if it was i wouldn't be able to boot off it tho
[2025-06-10T20:57:08Z] <midfavila> yeah
[2025-06-10T20:57:16Z] <kris_> idk can you just boot it and sftp files off of it
[2025-06-10T20:57:21Z] <midfavila> no
[2025-06-10T20:57:29Z] <midfavila> i can't access the drive under linux at all
[2025-06-10T20:57:38Z] <midfavila> the kernel gives up because it can't access it
[2025-06-10T20:57:46Z] <midfavila> i'll get the dmesg log once i'm home
[2025-06-10T21:00:29Z] <kris_> i thought you said you could boot
[2025-06-10T21:01:28Z] <midfavila> i can, but the kernel can't access the disk once the kernel's loaded
[2025-06-10T21:01:32Z] <midfavila> LILO can boot,
[2025-06-10T21:01:37Z] <kris_> oh i see
[2025-06-10T21:01:38Z] <midfavila> and LILO can read the kernel and boot it,
[2025-06-10T21:01:44Z] <midfavila> but the kernel can't access the disk at all
[2025-06-10T21:01:47Z] <midfavila> for whatever reason
[2025-06-10T21:01:48Z] <kris_> i mean maybe not a bad drive but a corrupt partition
[2025-06-10T21:01:55Z] <midfavila> no, there's no drive access at all
[2025-06-10T21:29:08Z] <kiedtl> sewn, 1) it's not *that* hard, zig-bootstrap is a thing 2) that's what packages in the repos are for? to take the burden off others?
[2025-06-10T21:29:20Z] <kiedtl> zit should be the build runner
[2025-06-10T21:29:43Z] <kiedtl> zit build. zit clean. zit it up
[2025-06-10T21:30:07Z] <sewn> ...its hard
[2025-06-10T21:30:15Z] <kiedtl> easier than rust
[2025-06-10T21:35:30Z] <sewn> okay easier than rust in theory
[2025-06-10T21:35:41Z] <sewn> but atleast you don't have to compile a llvm alongside zig
[2025-06-10T21:35:47Z] <sewn> ...and deal with segfaults