[2025-06-11T00:13:43Z] <midfavila> https://github.com/clarkwang/sexpect
[2025-06-11T00:13:44Z] <midfavila> https://empty.sourceforge.net/
[2025-06-11T00:13:56Z] <midfavila> interesting alternatives to expect that are designed to work with standard unix shells instead of tcl
[2025-06-11T00:14:05Z] <midfavila> i might fiddle with these...
[2025-06-11T00:14:52Z] <kris_> mid you don't use openssl right
[2025-06-11T00:15:09Z] <midfavila> i do at this exact minute
[2025-06-11T00:15:15Z] <midfavila> debian uses openssl
[2025-06-11T00:15:19Z] <midfavila> afaik
[2025-06-11T00:15:21Z] <midfavila> i doubt they use libre
[2025-06-11T00:15:26Z] <kris_> i mean yeah pretty much nothing uses libressl 
[2025-06-11T00:15:32Z] <midfavila> for some reason
[2025-06-11T00:15:33Z] <kris_> im just wondering how hard it would be to switch out openssl for libressl
[2025-06-11T00:15:37Z] <midfavila> not at all
[2025-06-11T00:15:42Z] <midfavila> kiss used to use libressl as its default
[2025-06-11T00:15:46Z] <midfavila> i still don't know why we switched
[2025-06-11T00:15:47Z] <kris_> apparently it was enough of a maintenance burden that void switched to openssl
[2025-06-11T00:15:49Z] <kris_> in like 2021
[2025-06-11T00:16:02Z] <midfavila> all of my stuff builds cleanly regardless of whether i use open or libre
[2025-06-11T00:16:10Z] <midfavila> sounds like a skill issue tbqh
[2025-06-11T00:16:13Z] * midfavila sniffs
[2025-06-11T00:16:21Z] <kris_> there are probably a handful of things out there that end up needing to be patched
[2025-06-11T00:16:28Z] <kris_> i cant think of any distros that default to libre now
[2025-06-11T00:16:32Z] <kris_> i think its basically only openbsd
[2025-06-11T00:16:46Z] <midfavila> mine is going to be extra contrarian and default to bear >:O
[2025-06-11T00:17:13Z] <kris_> ehh
[2025-06-11T00:17:20Z] <midfavila> >it's dead!!!
[2025-06-11T00:17:38Z] <kris_> i just feel like libressl should be good enough
[2025-06-11T00:17:42Z] <kris_> bearssl kinda *is* dead
[2025-06-11T00:17:47Z] <kris_> iirc
[2025-06-11T00:17:51Z] <midfavila> it's literally not, lol
[2025-06-11T00:17:55Z] <midfavila> there was a conversation in here like
[2025-06-11T00:18:01Z] <midfavila> yesterday or the day before about exactly this
[2025-06-11T00:18:01Z] <kris_> someone must have lied to me ive never actually looked
[2025-06-11T00:18:08Z] <kris_> :p
[2025-06-11T00:18:12Z] <midfavila> sad_plan: was it you i was talking to about bearssl 
[2025-06-11T00:18:17Z] <midfavila> and software lifecycles and shit
[2025-06-11T00:18:30Z] <kris_> anyway i may try out libressl im just scared of making changes like that
[2025-06-11T00:18:38Z] <midfavila> just download an old release of kiss
[2025-06-11T00:18:40Z] <kris_> but i guess if anything is broken as a result of it i should notice it
[2025-06-11T00:18:45Z] <midfavila> i know ur terrified of kiss but still
[2025-06-11T00:18:48Z] * midfavila patpats
[2025-06-11T00:18:50Z] <kris_> >terrified of kiss
[2025-06-11T00:18:50Z] <kris_> no
[2025-06-11T00:18:52Z] <kris_> just lazy
[2025-06-11T00:18:56Z] <midfavila> cope
[2025-06-11T00:18:57Z] <midfavila> :3c
[2025-06-11T00:19:03Z] <midfavila> prove it nerd
[2025-06-11T00:19:10Z] <midfavila> i'm pressuring you as a peer
[2025-06-11T00:19:13Z] <midfavila> that means you gotta do it
[2025-06-11T00:19:34Z] * kris_ is waiting for mid to find out that peer pressure generally makes me do the opposite
[2025-06-11T00:19:57Z] <midfavila> if you want to forever stare into the void wondering what could have been, that's on you :P
[2025-06-11T00:20:10Z] <kris_> i already know what will be
[2025-06-11T00:20:19Z] <kris_> and i already know what will be as a result of making my own thing
[2025-06-11T00:20:22Z] <kris_> a huge maintenance burden
[2025-06-11T00:20:36Z] <midfavila> it's really not
[2025-06-11T00:20:39Z] <midfavila> = w=
[2025-06-11T00:20:53Z] <midfavila> like
[2025-06-11T00:21:04Z] <midfavila> if you consider running 'kiss b foo' 
[2025-06-11T00:21:06Z] <kris_> i understand what point you've been trying to make i just don't agree with it
[2025-06-11T00:21:13Z] <kris_> it's not just "set and forget"
[2025-06-11T00:21:15Z] <midfavila> you've never used kiss lol
[2025-06-11T00:21:19Z] <kris_> packages change and you have to change how they're built and otherwise as a result of it
[2025-06-11T00:21:21Z] <midfavila> you don't have the qualifications to disagree 
[2025-06-11T00:21:23Z] <midfavila> tbqh
[2025-06-11T00:21:32Z] <midfavila> you don't though
[2025-06-11T00:21:34Z] <midfavila> that's the thing
[2025-06-11T00:21:42Z] <kris_> for a lot of things probably not
[2025-06-11T00:21:45Z] <midfavila> most of the time it's literally just a standard configure
[2025-06-11T00:21:54Z] <midfavila> like probably 90-95%
[2025-06-11T00:22:00Z] <midfavila> you write it once and it just werks
[2025-06-11T00:22:02Z] <kris_> also
[2025-06-11T00:22:06Z] <kris_> using blake3 is interesting
[2025-06-11T00:22:11Z] <midfavila> yeah idk what's up with that
[2025-06-11T00:22:14Z] <kris_> i dont really have an opinion on it
[2025-06-11T00:22:15Z] <midfavila> i haven't used upstream in years
[2025-06-11T00:22:15Z] <kris_> it's just interesting
[2025-06-11T00:22:35Z] <midfavila> i stopped doing upstream stuff when x11 was dropped
[2025-06-11T00:22:37Z] <kris_> i would just think sha256 is enough
[2025-06-11T00:22:44Z] <kris_> and not too slow
[2025-06-11T00:22:51Z] <kris_> blake3 is a LOT faster than sha256 but eh
[2025-06-11T00:23:01Z] * midfavila bigshrugs
[2025-06-11T00:23:15Z] <midfavila> iirc it used to be sha256
[2025-06-11T00:23:24Z] * kris_ using sha512 on his distro just to be contrarian
[2025-06-11T00:23:30Z] * kris_ also doesn't care if it's too slow for ur wittle cpu
[2025-06-11T00:24:34Z] <midfavila> just going to patch it out tbqh
[2025-06-11T00:24:59Z] <kris_> debian: >is debian
[2025-06-11T00:25:05Z] <kris_> void: >probably unstable
[2025-06-11T00:25:06Z] <kris_> AAAAAAA
[2025-06-11T00:25:09Z] <kris_> analysis paralysis sucks
[2025-06-11T00:25:30Z] <midfavila> >kiss: just werks:tm:, gets you lots of really cool frens
[2025-06-11T00:25:37Z] <midfavila> :^)
[2025-06-11T00:25:48Z] <kris_> would you still talk to me if i was a fedora user..
[2025-06-11T00:26:02Z] <kris_> nah that's too fucked up to joke about nvm
[2025-06-11T00:26:08Z] <midfavila> yes, but it would mostly involve me relentlessly dunking on you
[2025-06-11T00:26:22Z] <kris_> well in that case
[2025-06-11T00:27:34Z] <kris_> tbh i wonder how irc channel ownership even works
[2025-06-11T00:27:40Z] <kris_> i can join a channel that doesnt exist and then i own it
[2025-06-11T00:27:47Z] <kris_> what happens if there are also other users but then i disconnect
[2025-06-11T00:27:53Z] <midfavila> yeah when you join a chanel that's empty you create it
[2025-06-11T00:27:56Z] <midfavila> and become chanop
[2025-06-11T00:28:04Z] <midfavila> when there's other people they remain 
[2025-06-11T00:28:07Z] <midfavila> there's just no chanop
[2025-06-11T00:28:26Z] <midfavila> usually persistent channels have a bot that manages logistics and persistence and shit afaik
[2025-06-11T00:29:19Z] <kris_> >void bad
[2025-06-11T00:29:27Z] <kris_> >me: sitting here listening to Alice In Chains - Them Bones perfectly fine
[2025-06-11T00:30:00Z] <kris_> i need to find more grunge music i bet theres a lot of smaller bands that are also good
[2025-06-11T02:21:09Z] <kiedtl> Nah chanserv holds channel op/owner info
[2025-06-11T02:21:30Z] <kiedtl> You remember we had to contact the freenode staff back when dylan disappeared, and ask for ownership of the channel
[2025-06-11T02:22:00Z] <kiedtl> iirc if a channel isn't registered, someone joins, others join, the first user leaves, then whoever joined next becomes the chanop
[2025-06-11T02:22:37Z] <kiedtl> but I *think* whoever gets the "/msg ChanServ REGISTER #channel" message in first will have ownership, regardless of current chanops(?)
[2025-06-11T02:27:53Z] <vulpine> registering with chanserv requires already being a chanop
[2025-06-11T02:39:21Z] <riteo> brb
[2025-06-11T02:41:43Z] <kiedtl> ah
[2025-06-11T03:07:57Z] <midfavila> kiedtl: honestly it feels like that was a million years ago
[2025-06-11T03:08:04Z] <kiedtl> fair
[2025-06-11T03:08:19Z] <midfavila> and when we needed him the most...
[2025-06-11T03:08:21Z] <midfavila> ...he vanished.
[2025-06-11T03:08:39Z] <midfavila> now, a thousand years later, we think we've found the *next* dylan
[2025-06-11T03:08:44Z] <midfavila> cue avatar theme
[2025-06-11T03:15:19Z] <midfavila> i feel like redhat would be the fire nation
[2025-06-11T03:15:30Z] <kris_> i believe in the second coming of dylan
[2025-06-11T03:15:52Z] <kris_> i was never here for the first coming of dylan though
[2025-06-11T03:22:40Z] <plasm0duck> heh
[2025-06-11T03:22:56Z] <plasm0duck> What nation would Alpine be? Air?
[2025-06-11T03:23:08Z] <kris_> maybe the fire nation can have multiple members
[2025-06-11T03:23:14Z] <kris_> the fire federation
[2025-06-11T03:23:43Z] <plasm0duck> kris_, 'The united federation of fire'.
[2025-06-11T03:23:50Z] <kris_> yes
[2025-06-11T03:24:03Z] <kris_> they sell fire and fire accessories
[2025-06-11T03:24:31Z] <plasm0duck> && they are master crafters of firewalls.
[2025-06-11T03:36:14Z] <kiedtl> redhat & debian are earth I would say. Large complacent behemoths
[2025-06-11T03:36:37Z] <kiedtl> google is fire nation (android, fuschia, other linux forks/derivatives)
[2025-06-11T03:36:50Z] <kiedtl> air is bsd -- almost extinct :)
[2025-06-11T03:38:36Z] <midfavila> and water is what, all the niche distros
[2025-06-11T03:38:41Z] <midfavila> the source alliance
[2025-06-11T03:38:44Z] <plasm0duck> BSD will never be extinct.
[2025-06-11T03:38:46Z] <midfavila> >gentoo
[2025-06-11T03:38:47Z] <midfavila> >kiss
[2025-06-11T03:38:50Z] <midfavila> >source mage
[2025-06-11T03:38:51Z] <midfavila> >crux
[2025-06-11T03:38:55Z] <plasm0duck> Especially FreeBSD and OpenBSD.
[2025-06-11T03:39:09Z] <midfavila> what about net? qwq
[2025-06-11T03:39:21Z] <plasm0duck> Commercial Unix is going extinct though.
[2025-06-11T03:39:28Z] <midfavila> oh for sure
[2025-06-11T03:39:33Z] <midfavila> i've seen like
[2025-06-11T03:39:36Z] <midfavila> one job for HPUX
[2025-06-11T03:39:39Z] <midfavila> a few for AIX
[2025-06-11T03:39:43Z] <midfavila> and a handful for solaris
[2025-06-11T03:39:53Z] <midfavila> never any for SCO or etc
[2025-06-11T03:39:58Z] <plasm0duck> FreeBSD is way too big, especially in the server space with companies like Netflix ect.
[2025-06-11T03:40:14Z] <plasm0duck> Also OpenBSD for security applications.
[2025-06-11T03:40:25Z] <kiedtl> maybe air is crux, since it spawned kiss linux (kinda)
[2025-06-11T03:40:39Z] <plasm0duck> FreeBSD is in pfsense/opnsense and pf comes from OpenBSD.
[2025-06-11T03:40:47Z] <kiedtl> actually where is openbsd used in real life
[2025-06-11T03:40:49Z] <midfavila> kiedtl: how does crux have anything to do with kiss?
[2025-06-11T03:40:56Z] <midfavila> legit question
[2025-06-11T03:40:59Z] <kiedtl> I know freebsd is great with ISPs/verizon
[2025-06-11T03:41:12Z] <kiedtl> midfavila, iirc crux along with void/alpine was a major inspiration
[2025-06-11T03:41:16Z] <plasm0duck> OpenBSD is used on a lot of servers, especially security concious people.
[2025-06-11T03:41:20Z] <kiedtl> i could be wrong
[2025-06-11T03:41:30Z] <kiedtl> plasm0duck, outside of hobbyist market though?
[2025-06-11T03:41:35Z] <midfavila> kiedtl: it's found on your mom's computer
[2025-06-11T03:41:36Z] <midfavila> :^)
[2025-06-11T03:41:45Z] <kiedtl> openbsd?
[2025-06-11T03:41:46Z] <plasm0duck> OpenBSD is a great OS, it is very fast, light and excellent documentation.
[2025-06-11T03:42:16Z] <plasm0duck> OpenBSD is used in a lot of military servers.
[2025-06-11T03:43:05Z] <plasm0duck> I know US DOD uses it A LOT and also I remember watching some documentary about Ukraine cyber defence stopping Russian hackers and they were running OpenBSD.
[2025-06-11T03:43:39Z] <kiedtl> huh
[2025-06-11T03:43:42Z] <plasm0duck> OpenBSD gave us ssh, ssl etc
[2025-06-11T03:44:18Z] <plasm0duck> OpenBSD is like the ultimate 'suckless' OS.
[2025-06-11T03:45:07Z] <plasm0duck> I highly recommend you to try it out.
[2025-06-11T03:45:38Z] <kris_> idk, openbsd packages a *lot* of software by default
[2025-06-11T03:45:45Z] <midfavila> openbsd isn't "suckless"
[2025-06-11T03:45:50Z] <kris_> and disabling sets is easy to fuck up when upgrades will attempt to put them back on the system
[2025-06-11T03:45:52Z] <midfavila> it's unix
[2025-06-11T03:45:57Z] <kris_> packages/packs
[2025-06-11T03:46:01Z] <midfavila> unix is sucky by default if you ask them 
[2025-06-11T03:46:53Z] <kris_> i love how i want to get something done and accidentally end up watching nilered for like 2 hours straight
[2025-06-11T03:47:16Z] <midfavila> you need your stoomulus
[2025-06-11T03:54:42Z] <plasm0duck> what do you guys think about Plan9/9Front?
[2025-06-11T03:57:00Z] <midfavila> plan 9 is super cool, i've used it a bit
[2025-06-11T03:57:17Z] <midfavila> not enough to properly grasp its functionality but i appreciate it a lot
[2025-06-11T03:57:23Z] <midfavila> theoretically my laptop supports 9front natively
[2025-06-11T03:57:34Z] <midfavila> so i could boot it off an SD card
[2025-06-11T03:58:39Z] <plasm0duck> midfavila, what laptop do you have?
[2025-06-11T03:59:39Z] <midfavila> plasm0duck: mnt reform with the imx8mq som
[2025-06-11T03:59:50Z] <midfavila> and an ath9k wireless card
[2025-06-11T03:59:59Z] <midfavila> is my baby uwu
[2025-06-11T04:00:42Z] <plasm0duck> Nice, I have a Thinkpad X1 Carbon gen 4.
[2025-06-11T04:00:55Z] * midfavila nod-nods
[2025-06-11T04:01:11Z] <midfavila> i used to like thinkpads, then i switched to toughbooks for a while
[2025-06-11T04:01:18Z] <midfavila> i had an ibm a31p in high school
[2025-06-11T04:01:22Z] <midfavila> god that thing was amazing
[2025-06-11T04:02:07Z] <midfavila> 14", 1600x1200 screen, seven-row keyboard plus like five or six macro buttons on the side, full set of audio *and* video I/O (S-Video in, too, which was wonky)
[2025-06-11T04:02:29Z] <plasm0duck> and a ThinkCentre M910q workstation.
[2025-06-11T04:02:38Z] <midfavila> 2gb of memory, p4@2ghz, and i had a pair of CF cards instead of a hard disk
[2025-06-11T04:02:55Z] <midfavila> (i promise i'm not OLD, this was like 2016-2020-ish)
[2025-06-11T04:03:24Z] <midfavila> put slackware on it and it was golden
[2025-06-11T04:03:38Z] <plasm0duck> Oh and a PinePhone running Alpine Linux. That's all the hardware I currently have. I used to have a bunch of Raspberry Pi 3B's. But I sold them. I need to get some more hardware.
[2025-06-11T04:03:50Z] * midfavila nod-nods
[2025-06-11T04:03:53Z] <midfavila> get a uconsole!!!!!!!!
[2025-06-11T04:03:58Z] <kris_> i have way too much hardware 
[2025-06-11T04:04:13Z] <midfavila> i may or may not be something of a uconsole stan even if mine is currently completely useless
[2025-06-11T04:04:22Z] <midfavila> little handheld linux machine!!!
[2025-06-11T04:04:32Z] <midfavila> https://www.clockworkpi.com/uconsole
[2025-06-11T04:04:36Z] <midfavila> lookit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[2025-06-11T04:05:33Z] <plasm0duck> I used to have an old ThinkCentre running pfsense as my modem/router/firewall. I was nice. I could block whole country IP ranges from accessing my network and restrict my wifes Tik Tok/Instagram/Facebook bandwidth.
[2025-06-11T04:06:42Z] <kris_> currently i have a dell optiplex 3040 micro as one of my VM hosts, i5 6500t, 8gb of ram, 256gb ssd
[2025-06-11T04:07:11Z] <kris_> my router is an hp t740 thin client with an x540-t2 10 gig nic, thing's a 4c8t first gen ryzen embedded cpu with 8gb of ram and some small 64gb ssd
[2025-06-11T04:07:32Z] <midfavila> >restrict my wife's bandwidth
[2025-06-11T04:07:36Z] * midfavila raises an eyebrow?
[2025-06-11T04:07:56Z] <kris_> desktop - core ultra 7 265k, 48gb of 7000mt memory, 6700xt gpu, 1tb and 2tb 970 evo plus' SSDs
[2025-06-11T04:08:15Z] <kris_> actual server - ryzen 5 3600, 32gb of some 2666mt ECC memory, two 8tb hdds and a 500gb 860 evo plus boot drive
[2025-06-11T04:08:20Z] <kris_> (also just hosts VMs)
[2025-06-11T04:08:36Z] <kris_> and a pi 3b+ running alpine that hosts my local xbps repo
[2025-06-11T04:08:40Z] <kris_> router runs openwrt, everything else is on void
[2025-06-11T04:09:50Z] <kris_> i have a spare 10700k + 32gb of ram + motherboard in the closet that i haven't decided what to do with yet and my old laptop that has an i7 9750h and a gtx 1650 with 16gb of ram of some sort, that laptop doesn't have an OS on it atm
[2025-06-11T04:10:08Z] <kris_> OH and my thinkpad t480 which is the laptop i actually use
[2025-06-11T05:10:53Z] <kris_> midfavila it seems like an ipod classic might be kind of a chore since there's not an actual way to restore the OS without itunes
[2025-06-11T05:11:19Z] <kris_> what a shame, i should only need it once though when putting the OS on the new storage because i intend on flash modding it
[2025-06-11T05:19:35Z] <midfavila> get that libre hardware replacement 
[2025-06-11T05:19:49Z] <midfavila> the tangara or w/e
[2025-06-11T05:20:13Z] <kris_> i think it's still preorder status 
[2025-06-11T05:20:27Z] <kris_> yeah preorder status
[2025-06-11T05:20:53Z] * kris_ is wondering how hard it would be to just get a pi zero and build one
[2025-06-11T05:24:52Z] * midfavila shrugs
[2025-06-11T05:35:34Z] <sad_plan> midfavila: correct, we mentioned bearssl, and software being *dead* a day ago iirc.
[2025-06-11T05:36:54Z] <midfavila> tell kris_ to stop being an UPDOOTER
[2025-06-11T05:42:52Z] <sad_plan> kris_: stahp being an updooter, nao, pls
[2025-06-11T05:45:02Z] <kris_> i am not an updooter
[2025-06-11T05:53:30Z] <midfavila> 100% an updooter
[2025-06-11T05:53:31Z] <midfavila> :3c
[2025-06-11T05:53:48Z] <kris_> i like how my friends bully me for having software that's outdated
[2025-06-11T05:53:55Z] <kris_> and then i come here and friends poke at me for having software that's new
[2025-06-11T05:53:58Z] <kris_> :p
[2025-06-11T05:54:11Z] <midfavila> i'm going to bully you regardless for what it's worth
[2025-06-11T05:54:12Z] <midfavila> :3
[2025-06-11T05:54:42Z] <kris_> i'm going to strike back by installing debian
[2025-06-11T05:54:58Z] <kris_> i discovered another what i consider to be an issue with debians packaging earlier today
[2025-06-11T05:55:01Z] <midfavila> that's not the own you think it is
[2025-06-11T05:55:10Z] <kris_> if you disable recommends, curl will not pull in ca-certificates
[2025-06-11T05:55:14Z] <kris_> which means it literally just won't have https
[2025-06-11T05:55:20Z] <kris_> shit like that should be a hard dep imo
[2025-06-11T12:29:56Z] <plasm0duck> o/
[2025-06-11T12:43:51Z] <sad_plan> o/
[2025-06-11T12:44:56Z] <sad_plan> kris_: I get why they dont. because curl does not need it. however, its kinda counter-intiuitive to not include it. users unaware of this would otherwise be frustratrated over the fact that they get no https
[2025-06-11T12:45:56Z] <sad_plan> also regarding being an uptooter, you cannot win. its like with women, it does not matter wether youre right or wrong, youre wrong either way :p lol
[2025-06-11T12:49:06Z] <sad_plan> also also, we have a soda vending machine at work. guess what? it runs linux :3 if you reset it, theres 2 pinguins appearing when booting :p
[2025-06-11T13:35:45Z] <sewn> oh my god
[2025-06-11T13:35:51Z] <sewn> sad_plan saying :3
[2025-06-11T13:35:57Z] <sewn> oh my fucking bingle
[2025-06-11T13:36:00Z] <sewn> what?! :3
[2025-06-11T13:44:26Z] <sad_plan> it felt appropriate today C:
[2025-06-11T13:50:25Z] <il> very nice
[2025-06-11T15:48:29Z] <midfavila> :3333333333333333333333333333333333333333333
[2025-06-11T16:04:05Z] <sewn> :3c
[2025-06-11T16:11:16Z] <sad_plan> E:
[2025-06-11T16:59:54Z] <sewn> ٤:
[2025-06-11T19:08:57Z] <kris_> sad_plan yeah i'm just one of those people that when i install a package i kind of expect it to work as intended and that's a case where it definitely does not
[2025-06-11T19:09:00Z] <kris_> if you disable recommends
[2025-06-11T19:09:17Z] <kris_> also i'm definitely not an updooter, part of what has drawn me to void for so long is that they don't bleeding edge roll things
[2025-06-11T19:26:45Z] <sad_plan> I get that. and I kinda agree with you. if you install some program, theres some expectations that comes with it. its installing mpv, but ffmpeg is just left out. or installing a wm, but wayland or X is left out