[2025-06-15T00:26:16Z] <kris_> wonder how hummingbird is to use
[2025-06-15T00:26:20Z] <kris_> the init, i mean
[2025-06-15T00:31:48Z] <kris_> this may be the most simple thing ive ever seen in my life
[2025-06-15T00:34:25Z] <sad_plan> kris_: then youve seen nothing.  my init is basically 3 lines
[2025-06-15T00:35:07Z] <kris_> sad_plan golfing, are we?
[2025-06-15T00:35:36Z] <sad_plan> wym?
[2025-06-15T00:35:44Z] <kris_> some people are into "code golfing"
[2025-06-15T00:35:50Z] <kris_> where you try to lower the line count at all costs
[2025-06-15T00:35:53Z] <sad_plan> I keep seeing people mention code golfing, but I never really got what it means
[2025-06-15T00:35:55Z] <sad_plan> ah, ok
[2025-06-15T00:36:03Z] <kris_> golf == less swings to get ball in hole better
[2025-06-15T00:36:07Z] <kris_> same thing here but with LOC
[2025-06-15T00:36:13Z] <sad_plan> well, not neccessarly. I simply wanted an init written in rc
[2025-06-15T00:36:26Z] <sad_plan> but yes, perhaps im code golfing
[2025-06-15T00:36:35Z] <kris_> i'm just exploring things at the moment because i'm about to throw together an LFS system to test my package manager on
[2025-06-15T00:37:21Z] <sad_plan> my rcpm is less than 200 LOC currently, and all im missing is more or less dependency tracking, and have tarballs pack out in a tempdir, and handle possible conflicts
[2025-06-15T00:37:40Z] <sad_plan> nice
[2025-06-15T00:37:49Z] <sad_plan> do you have you pm hosted somewhere?
[2025-06-15T00:38:03Z] <kris_> no i've not even started yet, i need a system to put this on first
[2025-06-15T00:38:12Z] <sad_plan> I see
[2025-06-15T00:38:18Z] <kris_> i scrapped my last variant of this because i decided writing it in bash was a little dumb
[2025-06-15T00:38:23Z] <kris_> this time being posix shell
[2025-06-15T00:38:35Z] <sad_plan> good choice
[2025-06-15T00:38:48Z] <kris_> right now im trying to figure out where exactly kiss' default runit service manager is
[2025-06-15T00:38:55Z] <kris_> in the package source tree, i mean
[2025-06-15T00:39:07Z] <kris_> because i'm tempted to bootstrap runit as a service manager with hummingbird
[2025-06-15T00:39:30Z] <sad_plan> runit is under busybox on kiss
[2025-06-15T00:39:33Z] <kris_> albeit i could always just use only runit, fragmenting that probably isn't necessary
[2025-06-15T00:39:34Z] <kris_> ah is it
[2025-06-15T00:39:41Z] <kris_> forgot busybox has it baked in
[2025-06-15T00:39:59Z] <sad_plan> yes
[2025-06-15T00:40:25Z] <kris_> is it the entire runit or is it just the service management
[2025-06-15T00:40:39Z] <kris_> i've never actually set runit up manually, ive always just used it via void
[2025-06-15T00:40:39Z] <sad_plan> also; http://kisscommunity.org/init/changing-init/ relevant here. regarding hummingbird
[2025-06-15T00:41:44Z] <kris_> first up is writing a build system once i get an environment to run everything on though
[2025-06-15T00:41:45Z] <sad_plan> runit is terribly simple, atleast when it comes to writing service scripts. init, not so much, seeing as it uses inittab
[2025-06-15T00:42:02Z] <sad_plan> do you have anything specific in mind when it comes to buildsystem?
[2025-06-15T00:42:04Z] <kris_> yeah, i'm a big fan of runit in general, probably the best init/sv manager there is imho
[2025-06-15T00:42:13Z] <kris_> somewhat? i'm kind of inspired by xbps-src
[2025-06-15T00:42:30Z] <kris_> that being almost entirely self contained package templates as opposed to multiple files for build, checksums, etc
[2025-06-15T00:42:46Z] <kris_> and building in a controlled environment- i don't intend on using full blown containers like xbps-src does but rather just a regular chroot to make sure builds aren't dirty
[2025-06-15T00:42:56Z] <midfavila> my city has a hail warning in effect
[2025-06-15T00:43:01Z] <midfavila> in the middle of firestorm season
[2025-06-15T00:43:12Z] <midfavila> during potentially the hottest summer on record
[2025-06-15T00:43:14Z] <midfavila> bruv
[2025-06-15T00:43:22Z] <kris_> the problem is that probably 90% of the people i talk to absolutely despise runit
[2025-06-15T00:43:29Z] <kris_> "omg nooo its too racey because no dependencies"
[2025-06-15T00:43:39Z] <kris_> in reality it's a skill issue but im considering making the service manager part of this split so people can swap it
[2025-06-15T00:43:47Z] <midfavila> oh are we talking about inits
[2025-06-15T00:43:49Z] <midfavila> use shinit
[2025-06-15T00:43:49Z] <midfavila> :3
[2025-06-15T00:43:53Z] <midfavila> or sinit
[2025-06-15T00:44:00Z] <sad_plan> kris_: you can have kiss build everything insde a new root for each package though. could probably just write a wrapper for it, and purge it on each package
[2025-06-15T00:44:01Z] <kris_> i'm working out an lfs system at the moment to build my build system and package manager on top of
[2025-06-15T00:44:10Z] <kris_> i had another breakage last night and i'm thoroughly pissed off enough to do something now
[2025-06-15T00:44:45Z] <kris_> sad_plan yeah i had thought about using kiss' PM or forking it, but i don't intend on this being a source distro so i'd like the build system and package manager to be rather split
[2025-06-15T00:44:51Z] <kris_> source optional perhaps
[2025-06-15T00:45:05Z] <sad_plan> kris_: dunno if its interesting, but theres also lfs with musl, aswell as with clang/llvm, and both. if youre into that aswell
[2025-06-15T00:45:23Z] <kris_> i looked into clang/llvm but decided it's probably more annoying than dealing with gcc breaking things with a standards change every few years
[2025-06-15T00:45:43Z] <kris_> which im sure they also do, truthfully ive never used clang
[2025-06-15T00:46:21Z] <sad_plan> kiss can handle prebuilts aswell, you can just have 2 separate repos. one for binaries, which fetches prebuilt kiss packages, aswell as one for the actuall building
[2025-06-15T00:47:03Z] <sad_plan> clang would likely require some patching from time to time, whereas gcc, probably less
[2025-06-15T00:47:06Z] <apartgorgon9849> kris_: I'm in the process of hosting my own alpine mirror with everything being compiled with libc++ and clang
[2025-06-15T00:47:08Z] <kris_> midfavila also no, one way or another runit is going to be the default service manager- what i'm undecided on is whether or not i want to use runit to bootstrap the system as well
[2025-06-15T00:47:25Z] <kris_> either that or some shell script i write to do this or hummingbird or something like that
[2025-06-15T00:47:31Z] <kris_> or hell, kiss' init thing
[2025-06-15T00:47:40Z] <apartgorgon9849> clang is more standards compliant than gnu unless the project uses a lot of the gnu c extensions
[2025-06-15T00:47:50Z] <apartgorgon9849> *gcc not gnu
[2025-06-15T00:49:50Z] <kris_> the fact that busybox has runit baked in makes me really happy
[2025-06-15T00:50:05Z] <sad_plan> does clang comply with iso C++ standards? wouldve thought they just didnt give a shit. like most projects..
[2025-06-15T00:50:22Z] <apartgorgon9849> clang has better iso c++ compliance than gcc
[2025-06-15T00:50:52Z] <sad_plan> busybox is actually a really decent project, it has a suprising amount of tools included. not saying its all great, but its a good start for most basic things
[2025-06-15T00:50:56Z] <apartgorgon9849> kris_: TIL. Did not know busybox had runit baked in
[2025-06-15T00:50:58Z] <sad_plan> apartgorgon9849: hm, didnt know that
[2025-06-15T00:51:14Z] <kris_> sad_plan it's definitely the most complete thing
[2025-06-15T00:51:26Z] <kris_> and ive spent a little bit reading its source compared to a few other things like gnu coreutils and it's readable so
[2025-06-15T00:51:29Z] <kris_> which is more than i can say for gnus
[2025-06-15T00:52:02Z] <kris_> apartgorgon9849 yeah it's pretty neat
[2025-06-15T00:52:44Z] <kris_> i was looking into superd and it seems cool up until the realization that it's written in go
[2025-06-15T00:52:51Z] <kris_> which is completely fine im just trying to keep the base system as pure C/shell as possible
[2025-06-15T00:52:54Z] <apartgorgon9849> sad_plan: For instance, my c standard library (written in c++) didn't compile with GCC 14.2 (last I checked anyways) and needed clang19 or newer in order to compile since I use c++26 features that GCC didn't implement 
[2025-06-15T00:52:57Z] <sad_plan> some people dont like it. says toybox is better, but both are still terrible in comparisson to say sbase. toybox is lacking though in some areas still. theres also the silly bash requirement...
[2025-06-15T00:53:12Z] <kris_> sbase seems horrifically incomplete to me
[2025-06-15T00:53:49Z] <apartgorgon9849> sbase doesn't even support gnu tarballs which everything defaults to
[2025-06-15T00:54:01Z] <apartgorgon9849> sbase only supports ustar
[2025-06-15T00:54:16Z] <midfavila> yeah suckless tar is meh
[2025-06-15T00:54:25Z] <midfavila> sbase needs a few extras for sure
[2025-06-15T00:54:45Z] <sad_plan> apartgorgon9849: I see
[2025-06-15T00:55:32Z] <apartgorgon9849> I'm surprised you didn't comment on the fact I'm writing a c standard library in c++
[2025-06-15T00:55:33Z] <sad_plan> kris_: it does only cover posix utilities really. or atleast thats the goal anyway. so anything outside isnt really relevant, and youd have to supplement that.
[2025-06-15T00:55:43Z] <midfavila> also this
[2025-06-15T00:55:44Z] <midfavila> yes
[2025-06-15T00:55:56Z] <sad_plan> also sbase tar is terrible really. I think its gotten better. it has recieved some patches somewhat recently
[2025-06-15T00:55:59Z] <kris_> right, horrifically incomplete
[2025-06-15T00:56:02Z] <midfavila> i've used sbase for the past few years and it's mostly fine
[2025-06-15T00:56:06Z] <midfavila> posix is all you need
[2025-06-15T00:56:11Z] * midfavila turns his nose up at kris_ 
[2025-06-15T00:58:38Z] <apartgorgon9849> I do need to work more on my c standard library when I get back from vacation
[2025-06-15T00:58:46Z] <sad_plan> apartgorgon9849: a tad ironic though, writing a C library in C++ yes. didnt really think much of it. people write all kinds of shit in all kinds of languages. Its all fun and games isnt it really? :p
[2025-06-15T00:59:18Z] <apartgorgon9849> fair. I have seen a musl reimplementation in both rust and zig
[2025-06-15T00:59:24Z] <sad_plan> kris_: you need to turn down those expectetions. only having posix should be just fine :p
[2025-06-15T00:59:29Z] <sad_plan> apartgorgon9849: exacly :p
[2025-06-15T01:00:03Z] <midfavila> going to have to exile you at this rate kris_ 
[2025-06-15T01:00:04Z] <midfavila> smdh
[2025-06-15T01:00:31Z] <kris_> petition to exile midfavila before he exiles me
[2025-06-15T01:00:39Z] <apartgorgon9849> I do also plan to add extra features to my c standard library allowing for userspace encrypted memory
[2025-06-15T01:00:46Z] <midfavila> i am an institution of this channel
[2025-06-15T01:00:52Z] <midfavila> also sewn and riteo would miss me 
[2025-06-15T01:00:54Z] <kris_> lol ur a school
[2025-06-15T01:00:55Z] <apartgorgon9849> kris_: petition to exile nobody
[2025-06-15T01:01:17Z] <kris_> oh wow i see, noone would miss kris_
[2025-06-15T01:01:28Z] <kris_> :p
[2025-06-15T01:01:30Z] <sad_plan> petition to exile kris_'s love for everything void
[2025-06-15T01:01:37Z] <kris_> they already did that
[2025-06-15T01:01:41Z] <apartgorgon9849> kris_: I would miss you, but I do still primarily communicate with you on discord
[2025-06-15T01:01:51Z] <midfavila> does that mean you're going to install kiss kris_ 
[2025-06-15T01:01:59Z] <kris_> no i'm looking at rolling my own thing
[2025-06-15T01:02:02Z] <sad_plan> kris_: appearantly not, you still run void
[2025-06-15T01:02:14Z] <apartgorgon9849> midfavila: kris had a kiss vm
[2025-06-15T01:02:15Z] <kris_> but apparently i didnt use kiss for long enough to really understand the kiss package manager/build system
[2025-06-15T01:02:52Z] <kris_> apartgorgon9849 don't forget i also installed it on one of my old laptops for testing and never got sway to run
[2025-06-15T01:03:10Z] * midfavila coughs
[2025-06-15T01:03:12Z] <midfavila> skill issue
[2025-06-15T01:03:15Z] * midfavila coughs again
[2025-06-15T01:03:20Z] * kris_ coughs
[2025-06-15T01:03:23Z] <kris_> lazy
[2025-06-15T01:03:32Z] <kris_> I will not be coughing a second time.,
[2025-06-15T01:03:37Z] <midfavila> cope :3
[2025-06-15T01:03:43Z] <kris_> yeah yeah whatever stinker
[2025-06-15T01:03:52Z] <midfavila> seethe
[2025-06-15T01:03:53Z] <midfavila> :3c
[2025-06-15T01:03:57Z] <kris_> seether is a good band
[2025-06-15T01:03:57Z] <apartgorgon9849> wait, what happens if I run /oper
[2025-06-15T01:04:08Z] <apartgorgon9849> hopefully nothing
[2025-06-15T01:06:01Z] * apartgorgon9849 doesn't listen to music
[2025-06-15T04:59:54Z] <riteo> it's that time of the year again
[2025-06-15T05:00:03Z] <riteo> where at least once the power goes out
[2025-06-15T05:00:38Z] <riteo> and I still did not attempt hacking auto-power-on on my sweet little boscaiolo so I have to turn it on manually every single time
[2025-06-15T05:01:12Z] <riteo> I'm unironically tempted to take a random arduino and do something like a 2 sec delay onto the cheapest transistor I can find in the stash lmao
[2025-06-15T05:01:25Z] <riteo> which is like the most overkill thing ever
[2025-06-15T05:04:09Z] <riteo> also yea I'd miss midfavila 
[2025-06-15T05:04:15Z] <riteo> and also kris_ really
[2025-06-15T05:04:35Z] <riteo> really keeping this channel alive ngl
[2025-06-15T05:04:55Z] <riteo> also midfavila "posix is all you need" I'd be surprised if sbase _really_ implemented POSIX
[2025-06-15T05:05:22Z] <riteo> the amount of tools that are actually posix compliant is terrible
[2025-06-15T05:05:53Z] <riteo> there's always that weird flag which makes things to fucking great and yet here it is missing from whatever tool I look at
[2025-06-15T05:06:01Z] <riteo> or whole utilities, like... pax >:(
[2025-06-15T05:06:22Z] <riteo> pax is so awesome but there are like 3 implementations floating around, 2 of them coming from BSDs from what I can tell
[2025-06-15T05:06:47Z] <riteo> (I looked this up like 2 years ago so take those numbers with a grain of salt)
[2025-06-15T06:36:10Z] <sewn> wait where would midfavila go
[2025-06-15T06:36:15Z] <sewn> he's still here is he not
[2025-06-15T06:36:22Z] <riteo> yeye
[2025-06-15T06:36:39Z] <riteo> the joke is that kris_ is getting exiled by mid
[2025-06-15T06:36:46Z] <riteo> so kris wants mid to be exiled first
[2025-06-15T06:37:06Z] <riteo> and mid said that we'd miss them
[2025-06-15T08:09:45Z] <kris_> riteo i'd miss you too chief
[2025-06-15T10:04:05Z] <Vova> Hi, what do you for networking management ?
[2025-06-15T10:04:32Z] <Vova> just raw "ip" commands with dhcpcd or anything else ?
[2025-06-15T10:08:00Z] <kris_> definitely depends on who you ask but that's all i ever use
[2025-06-15T11:10:29Z] <sewn> iproute2 + sdhcp + don't talk to me otherwise
[2025-06-15T12:10:18Z] <kris_> sewn ok goodbye
[2025-06-15T12:10:44Z] <sewn> I wasn't talking to you kris I was talking to vova
[2025-06-15T12:10:45Z] <sewn> smh
[2025-06-15T12:34:23Z] <kris_> sewn this is the first im hearing of sdhcp
[2025-06-15T12:35:24Z] <kris_> i like how there's just zero docs
[2025-06-15T12:35:46Z] <sewn> meow
[2025-06-15T12:42:37Z] <Vova> sewm with get iproute2 if you have the ip command from busybox
[2025-06-15T12:42:47Z] <Vova> tbf I think about migrating to sbase+ubase
[2025-06-15T12:43:24Z] <Vova> also what do you all think about the new X fork (xlibre) ?
[2025-06-15T12:43:35Z] <Vova> I think about switching back to X
[2025-06-15T12:43:42Z] <Vova> also ditching pipewire for sndio
[2025-06-15T12:43:48Z] <kris_> i think it's just a bunch of people being angry with redhat and not much more
[2025-06-15T12:44:00Z] <kris_> wayland is still superior on modern setups functionally so i'm not interested at the moment
[2025-06-15T12:44:09Z] <kris_> *for most people
[2025-06-15T12:50:55Z] <sewn> sewm
[2025-06-15T12:50:59Z] <kris_> sewm
[2025-06-15T13:02:39Z] <Vova> sewm
[2025-06-15T13:09:23Z] <sewn> I like Xlibre
[2025-06-15T13:09:28Z] <sewn> bit I'll stay on wayland
[2025-06-15T13:09:33Z] <sewn> because its better designes
[2025-06-15T13:09:46Z] <sewn> than the x
[2025-06-15T13:09:49Z] <kris_> x is just legitimately not very useful on most of my systems due to my display setup
[2025-06-15T13:09:53Z] <kris_> and i prefer no screen tearing anyway
[2025-06-15T13:10:02Z] <sewn> personally I didnt have such problems
[2025-06-15T13:10:08Z] <sewn> perfect screen synchronization 
[2025-06-15T13:10:12Z] <sewn> and multi monitor worked great
[2025-06-15T13:10:15Z] <kris_> if your displays have identical properties yeah
[2025-06-15T13:10:19Z] <sewn> did not
[2025-06-15T13:10:22Z] <sewn> different refresh rate
[2025-06-15T13:10:23Z] <kris_> then you're not using vsync
[2025-06-15T13:10:25Z] <sewn> different resolution
[2025-06-15T13:10:27Z] <sewn> I was
[2025-06-15T13:10:30Z] <kris_> or forcing one to run at the framerate the others are
[2025-06-15T13:10:34Z] <kris_> and ignoring the screen tearing
[2025-06-15T13:10:34Z] <kris_> etc
[2025-06-15T13:10:34Z] <sewn> my nvidia proprietary drivers worked nice
[2025-06-15T13:10:41Z] <kris_> there are a few workarounds but they all lead to screen tearing
[2025-06-15T13:10:49Z] <kris_> and xorg already screen tears even with vsync
[2025-06-15T13:10:50Z] <kris_> and amd tearfree
[2025-06-15T13:11:01Z] <kris_> also
[2025-06-15T13:11:08Z] <kris_> busyboxs runit is a *lot* cleaner than normal runit
[2025-06-15T13:15:46Z] <sewn> of course
[2025-06-15T13:16:00Z] <kris_> i hadnt looked at runits source until earlier today with a friend
[2025-06-15T13:16:13Z] <kris_> runit has a lot of weird abstractions
[2025-06-15T13:31:28Z] <kris_> what's the criteria for what gets into kiss-community/community anyway
[2025-06-15T13:42:36Z] <kiedtl> kris_, "someone is willing to add and maintain it until the end of time"
[2025-06-15T13:43:06Z] <kiedtl> I would add "isn't unreasonably obscure/niche" but community/erlang exists so...
[2025-06-15T13:43:11Z] <kris_> heh
[2025-06-15T14:10:16Z] <kiedtl> Does smu not have tables? Do we just write stuff in ASCII or is embedding raw HTML ok
[2025-06-15T14:21:58Z] <sewn> kiedtl: make sure to use that smu fork
[2025-06-15T14:21:59Z] <sewn> karlb
[2025-06-15T14:22:19Z] <sewn> also I stopped using SMU personally I'm using uhh 'markdown(1)' and now I'm using 'md2html(1)'
[2025-06-15T14:22:28Z] <sewn> because I need a actually functional markdown implem
[2025-06-15T15:23:14Z] <sad_plan> well thats unexpected. I benchmarked surf and luakit. and surf which is know to be a real turd when it comes to speed. but came out better than luakit.
[2025-06-15T15:24:51Z] <sad_plan> although, compared t other results Ive found, its not very impressive. a pi 5 running firefox scored 4.08, where as surf on mine scored 3.66
[2025-06-15T15:45:35Z] <riteo> thikning about it it's kinda crazy that Dylan made Wayland become default given how opinionated he is.
[2025-06-15T15:47:11Z] <riteo> I mean we all are but we are all also kinda stubborn ain't that true
[2025-06-15T15:47:14Z] <sad_plan> wayland has less requirements, so from a minimalist standpoint, using X doesnt really make much sense. atleast in terms of package count
[2025-06-15T15:47:46Z] <riteo> yea but given the distribution of X users in this channel I don't think many would agree :P
[2025-06-15T15:48:51Z] <sad_plan> well sure, i would like to switch to wayland, but im kinda reluctant, because my setup is comfy
[2025-06-15T15:48:59Z] <riteo> that's fine
[2025-06-15T15:49:09Z] <sad_plan> and its not like X is 100% dead anyway
[2025-06-15T15:49:14Z] <riteo> yea it will still live...
[2025-06-15T15:49:16Z] <riteo> as XWayland :P
[2025-06-15T15:49:30Z] <sad_plan> or Xlibre which appearently surfaced recently.
[2025-06-15T15:49:43Z] <riteo> dunno sounds kinda sus by the description
[2025-06-15T15:49:48Z] <riteo> they could not label themselves as a simple fork no
[2025-06-15T15:50:01Z] <riteo> they had to go full nutjob "uhhh redhat new world order yea"
[2025-06-15T15:50:07Z] <riteo> "they took X from us"
[2025-06-15T15:50:37Z] <riteo> these kind of "politicized" forks never go far in my experience, from both sides really
[2025-06-15T15:51:10Z] <riteo> even the "opposite" "we're super clean because parent company sucks!" (*cough* Audacity *cough*) in the end got simply turned into de-enshittifying patches from what I can tell
[2025-06-15T15:51:16Z] <sad_plan> exacly. political reasons to fork a project isnt a good reason to fork a project if you ask me
[2025-06-15T15:51:32Z] <sad_plan> using openbsd's fork is probably better at that point really
[2025-06-15T15:51:36Z] <riteo> yea
[2025-06-15T15:52:49Z] <sad_plan> > tax evation tools. are they serious? wtf
[2025-06-15T15:53:33Z] <sad_plan> > make X great again
[2025-06-15T15:53:35Z] <riteo> usually when they say stuff like that they're not really developers in the first place
[2025-06-15T15:53:46Z] <sad_plan> are they implying thyre trump supporters aswell?
[2025-06-15T15:53:50Z] <riteo> they think that this kind of software works like big corpos
[2025-06-15T15:53:52Z] <sad_plan> right
[2025-06-15T15:53:57Z] <riteo> wait did they actually say make x great again
[2025-06-15T15:54:12Z] <riteo> I missed that part
[2025-06-15T15:54:12Z] <sad_plan> it doesnt, its just software. theres not politics in software to begin with
[2025-06-15T15:54:27Z] <sad_plan> just above Upgrade notice.
[2025-06-15T15:54:33Z] <sad_plan> not by word, but you get the idea
[2025-06-15T15:54:53Z] <riteo> holy fucking shit
[2025-06-15T15:55:06Z] <riteo> :skull:
[2025-06-15T15:55:16Z] <sad_plan> yep
[2025-06-15T15:55:44Z] <riteo> This is an independent project not at all affiliated with BigTech... nor political activists groups
[2025-06-15T15:56:05Z] <riteo> my brother in christ do you think you are not doing political activism rn 
[2025-06-15T15:56:12Z] <riteo> ok that's it I'm falling to the trolls
[2025-06-15T15:56:20Z] <sad_plan> they speak out of their asses for sure. right there in the README. its ridiculus really
[2025-06-15T15:58:41Z] <riteo> the trick in this case is to let them fizzle out
[2025-06-15T16:00:01Z] <sad_plan> yep. if people just simply ignore their existence, all of a sudden, xlibre is more dead than upstream X :D
[2025-06-15T16:00:12Z] <sad_plan> which is as ironic as it gets
[2025-06-15T16:09:51Z] <kris_>  as far as ive gathered yeah the person who made that fork is a trumper
[2025-06-15T16:09:56Z] <kris_> a lot of people have been posting about that on mastodon
[2025-06-15T16:10:26Z] <kris_> but in reality X is dead because nobody wants to deal with it
[2025-06-15T16:10:42Z] <kris_> (and yes, wayland is a lot simpler)
[2025-06-15T16:13:31Z] <sad_plan> sounds about right. the x org couldnt even get votes for a new boss or w/e it was. not enough voters or some shit. people are really just jumping ship on X really
[2025-06-15T16:14:06Z] <kris_> at a certain point it really is better to just start over compared to try to polish like 35 year old code
[2025-06-15T16:14:11Z] <kris_> or older, im not really sure
[2025-06-15T16:14:32Z] <kris_> riteo you use mdev?
[2025-06-15T16:34:12Z] <midfavila> >x is dead
[2025-06-15T16:34:16Z] <midfavila> sure seems to work to me
[2025-06-15T16:34:19Z] * midfavila sips
[2025-06-15T16:36:02Z] <kris_> yeah you must have over-sipped
[2025-06-15T16:36:45Z] <midfavila> sad_plan: there's also absolutely politics in software wtf are you talking about lol
[2025-06-15T16:37:23Z] <midfavila> the second there's more than like one person doing something there's going to be some sort of politics involved, even if it's just within the project's scope
[2025-06-15T16:38:11Z] <midfavila> admittedly a display server is probably significantly less political than, idk, facial recognition technology being integrated into self-driving cars that has to decide effectively who lives and dies in some circumstances
[2025-06-15T16:38:16Z] <midfavila> but the point remains
[2025-06-15T16:38:39Z] <midfavila> kris_: you will have to rip X out of my cold dead hands
[2025-06-15T16:39:12Z] <midfavila> i don't give a shit if red hat and gnome are calling it deprecated
[2025-06-15T16:39:15Z] <kris_> assuming i'm not placed under strict military lockdown shortly since my entire country is protesting right now i'll get back to you on that
[2025-06-15T16:39:19Z] * midfavila turns his nose up at kris_ 
[2025-06-15T16:39:26Z] <midfavila> tbf you probably will be
[2025-06-15T16:39:45Z] <midfavila> real ur-fascism hours
[2025-06-15T16:39:54Z] <kris_> also i dont care what redhat and gnome say
[2025-06-15T16:39:58Z] <kris_> like even a little bit
[2025-06-15T16:40:02Z] <midfavila> i saw trump at his stupid little parade the other day, he was so fucking pathetic lol
[2025-06-15T16:40:09Z] <midfavila> he looked so sad that nobody showed up
[2025-06-15T16:40:20Z] <kris_> im glad the option for you to use x11 still exists or whatever
[2025-06-15T16:40:22Z] <kris_> its just bad software imo
[2025-06-15T16:40:51Z] <midfavila> and yet it's worked for 40ish years across dozens of architectures, programming languages, runtime environments, etc
[2025-06-15T16:41:39Z] <midfavila> you know what, when fvwm gets ported to wayland and someone writes a toolkit that doesn't drag in half the universe, i'll consider switching
[2025-06-15T16:41:49Z] <midfavila> until that point, useless software
[2025-06-15T16:43:07Z] <midfavila> like gtk2 which is lightweight compared to 3/4/5 still uses around 16mb on x86_64 for a simple hello world text box test
[2025-06-15T16:43:10Z] <sad_plan> midfavila: i know theres a lot of politics in software, but its only there because someone applied it. its not there by default.. also im not saying x is dead, but devs are for sure jumping ship. so itll eventually be dead
[2025-06-15T16:43:12Z] <midfavila> xaw was maybe 200kb
[2025-06-15T16:43:22Z] <midfavila> sad_plan: software doesn't exist in a vacuum 
[2025-06-15T16:43:23Z] <kris_> if my software isnt political (foss) i don't want it
[2025-06-15T16:43:34Z] <midfavila> everything humans do within the context of like
[2025-06-15T16:43:36Z] <midfavila> a society
[2025-06-15T16:43:42Z] <midfavila> is political
[2025-06-15T16:43:44Z] <midfavila> wokeler.jpeg
[2025-06-15T16:45:18Z] <midfavila> like unless your meaning of political is strictly limited to statecraft and the relationship people have with the operations of government it's hard to avoid it
[2025-06-15T16:45:53Z] <midfavila> but you would be missing the forest for the trees under that definition 
[2025-06-15T16:47:07Z] <midfavila> man i should really get back into fvwm..
[2025-06-15T16:49:06Z] <midfavila> thomas_adam: you have experience with this stuff, so i'm curious, what's your opinion on the X-Wayland situation? i imagine it would be tricky to port fvwm. 
[2025-06-15T17:36:01Z] <kiedtl> riteo, wrt xorg->wayland I think Dylan planned to switch to Wayland from the beginning, he said later it just wasn't possible at the time kiss was created
[2025-06-15T17:36:21Z] <kiedtl> from a certain standpoint wayland is more "kiss" in the sense of not having as much legacy cruft
[2025-06-15T17:36:56Z] <kiedtl> though i'm not sure what his rationale was
[2025-06-15T17:39:39Z] <sad_plan> he was probably just waiting for it to reach a certain stage of maturity. atleast thats what I suspect
[2025-06-15T17:46:01Z] <kris_> there's also the fact that wayland compositors only really need to implement exactly what they need
[2025-06-15T17:46:12Z] <kris_> though most just use wlroots instead of building it out themselves
[2025-06-15T17:50:42Z] <kiedtl> https://kisscommunity.bvnf.space/archive/blog/20210711a/
[2025-06-15T17:51:00Z] <kiedtl> there is an argument that wayland is less unixy for that reason
[2025-06-15T17:51:08Z] <kiedtl> one tool doing just one job and all that
[2025-06-15T17:51:17Z] <kiedtl> (personally I don't think it matters)
[2025-06-15T17:51:37Z] <kris_> it doesn't
[2025-06-15T17:51:41Z] <nath> yeah it doesnt matter too much. it's just a graphics library kinda thing right
[2025-06-15T17:51:55Z] <kris_> i'm not sure how i feel about people going "muh unix philosophy"
[2025-06-15T17:52:08Z] <kris_> most people aren't able to really elaborate on why they want to adhere to what is basically a theory
[2025-06-15T17:52:15Z] <kris_> at least in the context of something like this
[2025-06-15T17:52:19Z] <kiedtl> unix philosophy is means to an end yeah, not an end in and of itself
[2025-06-15T17:52:29Z] <kiedtl> sometimes it's worth letting it go
[2025-06-15T17:52:33Z] <nath> yup, why should you limit yourself based on some principle that you might not even 100% agree with
[2025-06-15T17:52:43Z] <kiedtl> also. it's telling that those folks don't use plan9
[2025-06-15T17:53:00Z] <kiedtl> nath, your nick makes me want to play df
[2025-06-15T17:53:13Z] <nath> whats df sorry i live under a rock
[2025-06-15T17:53:34Z] <kiedtl> dwarf fortress. I could be misremembering but I think "nath" is one of the possible names for the dwarves
[2025-06-15T17:53:40Z] <nath> ohhh that game
[2025-06-15T17:53:46Z] <nath> isnt that the one thats been in dev for like 20 years
[2025-06-15T17:53:54Z] <nath> and the alcoholic cat bug
[2025-06-15T17:54:04Z] <kiedtl> yeah. had a steam release recently
[2025-06-15T17:54:07Z] <nath> oh shit fr?
[2025-06-15T17:54:12Z] <kiedtl> don't forget the bug where babies would mount their parents
[2025-06-15T17:54:15Z] <kiedtl> and ride them to death
[2025-06-15T17:54:30Z] <nath> wtf is this i gotta check this out at some point
[2025-06-15T17:54:55Z] <kiedtl> or the one where you could throw fluffy bunnies at monsters and insta-kill them, b/c the bunnies had zero surface area and would go right through whatever it hit
[2025-06-15T17:55:02Z] <kiedtl> it's fun :)
[2025-06-15T17:55:12Z] <nath> i just searched it up it looks pretty good
[2025-06-15T17:55:27Z] <nath> gotta get steam setup first though. hopefully it works
[2025-06-15T17:55:59Z] * kiedtl hasn't tried to setup steam yet
[2025-06-15T17:56:06Z] <nath> tragic
[2025-06-15T17:56:15Z] <kiedtl> checking on my void setup it says steam is statically linked? which should make it easier? idk
[2025-06-15T17:56:24Z] <nath> i was gonna use dwl but none of my flatpaks can take keyboard input on it X(
[2025-06-15T17:56:33Z] <kiedtl> ouch
[2025-06-15T17:56:33Z] <nath> so i gotta use sway which is still fine
[2025-06-15T17:56:42Z] <kris_> steam via flatpak should prooobably just work
[2025-06-15T17:56:49Z] <kiedtl> ah
[2025-06-15T17:56:54Z] <kris_> there's also a portable appimage if that's more your thing
[2025-06-15T17:57:00Z] <kris_> but /me likes flatpak
[2025-06-15T17:57:10Z] <nath> is there a way to make sway arrange windows like how dwl does
[2025-06-15T17:57:14Z] <kiedtl> appimage feels less yucky
[2025-06-15T17:57:26Z] <nath> where the most recently opened one is slightly larger and then all the other ones share a smaller half
[2025-06-15T17:57:35Z] <kiedtl> fibonacci layout?
[2025-06-15T17:57:36Z] <kris_> kiedtl you've effectively got the same thing in this case just more annoying
[2025-06-15T17:57:44Z] <nath> kiedtl i think so yea
[2025-06-15T17:57:47Z] <nath> idk what its called
[2025-06-15T17:58:01Z] <kris_> https://github.com/ivan-hc/Steam-appimage
[2025-06-15T17:58:46Z] <kris_> theoretically works on musl systems, i've not tried it
[2025-06-15T17:58:52Z] <kiedtl> nath, https://github.com/swaywm/sway/issues/4034 << quick google search
[2025-06-15T17:59:03Z] <kiedtl> >nope
[2025-06-15T17:59:05Z] <nath> kiedtl thx, imma check thjat out
[2025-06-15T17:59:06Z] <nath> that*
[2025-06-15T17:59:08Z] <kiedtl> typical ddevault response
[2025-06-15T17:59:25Z] <kris_> and yeah, sway is really tough to work with if you want something off the normal path
[2025-06-15T17:59:36Z] <nath> also does anyone know how to change the colours of the active workspace in swaybar
[2025-06-15T17:59:37Z] <kris_> given it's intended to only provide what i3 does, they're always going to direct you to the i3 people to ask for stuff
[2025-06-15T17:59:45Z] <nath> is it just "active_workspace" then hex codes
[2025-06-15T18:01:02Z] <kris_> should be
[2025-06-15T18:01:14Z] <kris_> active_workspace <border> <background> <text>
[2025-06-15T18:01:41Z] <nath> alr i've done that, gonna reload sway and pray
[2025-06-15T18:01:51Z] <nath> dammit its still blue !! !!
[2025-06-15T18:02:04Z] <nath> ill send code rq
[2025-06-15T18:02:24Z] <nath> "active_workspace #fabd2f #fabd2f" "#32302f"
[2025-06-15T18:03:23Z] <kris_> and you've got that in a colors{} block?
[2025-06-15T18:03:27Z] <nath> yup
[2025-06-15T18:03:35Z] <kris_> and you shouldn't need any quoting around it
[2025-06-15T18:03:41Z] <nath> i've applied colours to statusline, background and inactive_workspace and those have worked
[2025-06-15T18:04:12Z] <midfavila> kiedtl: re: muh yoonix, there's a difference between being principled and quixotism 
[2025-06-15T18:04:24Z] <midfavila> for most people, plan 9 doesn't work because of hardware limitations 
[2025-06-15T18:04:49Z] <midfavila> like the only machine i've ever owned that could run plan 9 natively is my reform 
[2025-06-15T18:05:32Z] <midfavila> if someone has a strong belief in the unix philosophy and they want to live in accordance with it as far as is practical, there's nothing wrong with that
[2025-06-15T18:05:51Z] <midfavila> keeping one's options open is, i would argue, generally a good thing. that's sort of what i see the "unix philosophy" as ultimately being
[2025-06-15T18:08:26Z] <midfavila> that said, X is also not particularly unix-y
[2025-06-15T18:08:32Z] <midfavila> i would still rather MGR
[2025-06-15T18:08:33Z] * midfavila sniffs
[2025-06-15T18:08:34Z] <nath> yup it definitely isn't
[2025-06-15T18:08:48Z] <midfavila> if MGR could still run...
[2025-06-15T18:08:49Z] <nath> X is still an absolute soldier though didnt it turn 40 not too long ago
[2025-06-15T18:08:50Z] <midfavila> awaa~
[2025-06-15T18:08:53Z] <midfavila> yes
[2025-06-15T18:08:56Z] <midfavila> X is crazy
[2025-06-15T18:08:57Z] <nath> holy hell
[2025-06-15T18:09:04Z] <midfavila> it's had a huge impact on computing
[2025-06-15T18:09:05Z] <kris_> i honestly don't know what kind of "software philosophy" i have
[2025-06-15T18:09:19Z] <nath> not adhering to one is fine
[2025-06-15T18:09:22Z] <nath> just use what you like
[2025-06-15T18:09:35Z] <kris_> void linux is damn near the best thing ever made imo, if it wasn't so unstable recently
[2025-06-15T18:09:47Z] <nath> yeah its brilliant
[2025-06-15T18:10:02Z] <nath> i mained it for a while, just moving to KISS now as im kinda dissatisfied with how you cant really kernel mod with it
[2025-06-15T18:10:04Z] <kris_> runit kind of sucks though honestly
[2025-06-15T18:10:14Z] <nath> yeah runit feels kinda clunky
[2025-06-15T18:10:16Z] <kiedtl> what happened to void recently?
[2025-06-15T18:10:18Z] <kris_> it's not that
[2025-06-15T18:10:23Z] * kiedtl uses void but only updates once a year
[2025-06-15T18:10:29Z] <nath> dependency checking is literally just "RETRY OVER AND OVER UNTIL IT WORKS!"
[2025-06-15T18:10:32Z] <kris_> runit has a lot of abstractions and shit and reimpls of standard C functions and whatnot
[2025-06-15T18:10:41Z] <kris_> which is.. weird and wrong
[2025-06-15T18:10:45Z] <kris_> busybox runit removes these
[2025-06-15T18:11:08Z] <nath> also void being on a piss old kernel version kinda stinks for me since i do a lot of gaming and ive wanted to take advantage of the perf gains in new kernel versions
[2025-06-15T18:11:11Z] <kris_> kiedtl honestly i don't know and i don't want to sound like im bashing anyone or anything
[2025-06-15T18:11:18Z] <kris_> nath: you can install whatever kernel version you want, they're all packaged
[2025-06-15T18:11:27Z] <kris_> void keeps the default kernel old because they want to maintain zfs compatibility
[2025-06-15T18:11:32Z] <nath> ok icl i didnt know that was a thing
[2025-06-15T18:11:44Z] <nath> ive committed to kiss now though so im sticking with it
[2025-06-15T18:11:48Z] <nath> heheheha
[2025-06-15T18:12:06Z] <kris_> ive just had way too many things that don't seem very well tested to me get pushed and break a bunch of stuff in the past few months
[2025-06-15T18:12:17Z] <nath> thats kinda the problem with arch tbh
[2025-06-15T18:12:25Z] <nath> because the releases are so fast there isnt much time to test
[2025-06-15T18:12:26Z] <kris_> ive never had that problem on arch
[2025-06-15T18:12:28Z] <kris_> only alpine and void
[2025-06-15T18:12:50Z] <nath> i see
[2025-06-15T18:12:51Z] <kris_> the problem with alpine is that they just fucking cut a release out of edge and push it
[2025-06-15T18:13:00Z] <nath> yup
[2025-06-15T18:13:02Z] <kris_> i'm not convinced they test anything at all past the basics like the kernel and grub and whatnot
[2025-06-15T18:13:10Z] <kris_> when 3.20 released all of my alpine installs stopped booting
[2025-06-15T18:13:19Z] <nath> kiss is also very much rolling release but i can imagine that testing is significantly easier because of how curated the repos are
[2025-06-15T18:13:19Z] <kris_> (gummiboot-efistub was broken and then it took them literal months to fix it)
[2025-06-15T18:13:25Z] <nath> aint no way
[2025-06-15T18:13:51Z] <kris_> not their fault in all fairness, gummiboot-efistub is ancient and not maintained and had been kinda broken for a while
[2025-06-15T18:13:58Z] <nath> also gummyboot is a way better name than systemd-boot and im dying on that hill
[2025-06-15T18:14:02Z] <kris_> just would have expected someone to notice that before sending it out to a stable release
[2025-06-15T18:14:05Z] <midfavila> >mfw lilo
[2025-06-15T18:14:15Z] <nath> whenever i see lilo i just think of lilo and stitch
[2025-06-15T18:14:28Z] <kris_> fwiw i have systemds efistub file packaged for kiss here https://github.com/kkrruumm/basix/tree/main/core/systemd-boot-efistub
[2025-06-15T18:14:30Z] <kris_> if you're into UKIs
[2025-06-15T18:14:39Z] <midfavila> syslinux is comfy too
[2025-06-15T18:14:41Z] <kris_> (this still builds the entirety of systemd-boot, nothing i can do about that because fuck systemd)
[2025-06-15T18:14:47Z] <nath> i think ive heard of syslinux
[2025-06-15T18:15:03Z] <kris_> and my own UKI builder, https://github.com/kkrruumm/buki
[2025-06-15T18:15:22Z] <kris_> simplest way to boot a UEFI system and works well with secure boot
[2025-06-15T18:15:44Z] <nath> i kinda like gummyboot / systemdboot because it just doesnt make itself known
[2025-06-15T18:15:52Z] <nath> you press power, wait like 5 seconds and you're at login prompt
[2025-06-15T18:15:55Z] <nath> no enter press in between
[2025-06-15T18:16:01Z] <kris_> i just roll a UKI and that's the only file on my system unencrypted
[2025-06-15T18:16:05Z] <kris_> tinyramfs handles decrypting root
[2025-06-15T18:16:20Z] <nath> ik an initramfs is kind of important for a lot of stuff but what does it do actually
[2025-06-15T18:16:25Z] <nath> ive been running without one quite comfortably
[2025-06-15T18:16:43Z] <kris_> the entire point is to prepare the root to be mounted if you've got some moderately or very abnormal disk setup
[2025-06-15T18:16:48Z] <nath> ohh i see
[2025-06-15T18:16:55Z] <nath> i thought it just brought up modules and shit
[2025-06-15T18:16:56Z] <kris_> so if you have raid disks or encrypted or whatever it may be
[2025-06-15T18:17:13Z] <kris_> or like in the past i've put dropbear in my initramfs so i can ssh into headless systems to decrypt their boot drive 
[2025-06-15T18:17:18Z] <kris_> so that theres no need for a monitor and keyboard to boot it
[2025-06-15T18:17:31Z] <nath> ok that sounds pretty cool
[2025-06-15T18:17:51Z] <nath> also i got my swaybar colours working finally
[2025-06-15T18:17:53Z] <nath> woohoo
[2025-06-15T18:19:14Z] <kris_> another thing that isn't a bad idea if you're an encryption nut like i am, you can put usbguard in your initramfs
[2025-06-15T18:19:35Z] <nath> interesting
[2025-06-15T18:19:41Z] <kris_> so that usb devices you haven't explicitly approved can't load and therefore if there's a device to intercept keypresses to your system, your keyboard just wont work
[2025-06-15T18:19:43Z] <nath> never heard of usbguard before but is it like
[2025-06-15T18:19:47Z] <kris_> and you'll see an "unregistered USB device" error
[2025-06-15T18:19:52Z] <nath> you could lock your disk and use a usb as the 'key'
[2025-06-15T18:20:13Z] <kris_> i mean, you could put your entire ESP and luks headers on a usb drive if you want
[2025-06-15T18:20:27Z] <kris_> i just don't really like that setup, secure boot with a proper boot chain and encryption is enough
[2025-06-15T18:20:58Z] <nath> i see
[2025-06-15T18:21:19Z] <kris_> proper boot chain meaning booting a UKI directly, and not having your /boot on its own partition
[2025-06-15T18:21:38Z] <kris_> so you have just an ESP with one file, and the rest is an encrypted partition, and you protect the UKI with secure boot with your own keys
[2025-06-15T18:21:51Z] <kris_> at which point you're just trusting your firmware
[2025-06-15T18:22:03Z] <nath> another sharp change in topic but my audio just fucking worked??? with no configuration????
[2025-06-15T18:22:05Z] <kris_> protect the UKI from being somehow externally modified, i mean
[2025-06-15T18:22:25Z] <kris_> what audio server are you using?
[2025-06-15T18:22:33Z] <nath> pipewire
[2025-06-15T18:22:44Z] <nath> i was gonna use alsa but im more familiar with pipewire
[2025-06-15T18:22:53Z] <nath> and also a lot of stuff cant really communicate with raw alsa right
[2025-06-15T18:22:57Z] <kris_> you're going to need pipewire for screensharing on wayland anyway
[2025-06-15T18:23:01Z] <nath> oh ye
[2025-06-15T18:23:20Z] <nath> i sometimes do think of using X but wayland honestly works fine for most of what i do
[2025-06-15T18:23:29Z] <nath> and the screen tearing on X looks kinda unpleasant
[2025-06-15T18:23:30Z] <kris_> my display setup requires wayland
[2025-06-15T18:23:35Z] <kris_> and god yeah the screen tearing on X is so bad
[2025-06-15T18:24:01Z] <nath> so i think the last thing i need to do is keyboard layout and refresh rate
[2025-06-15T18:24:04Z] <nath> then im ready to go
[2025-06-15T18:28:32Z] <nath> and also a cd ripping tool almsot forgot about that
[2025-06-15T18:31:24Z] <kris_> does kiss-boostrap require a kiss host
[2025-06-15T18:31:31Z] <nath> no idea i didnt use it
[2025-06-15T18:31:34Z] <nath> im gonna check
[2025-06-15T18:32:01Z] <nath> checking git it doesnt say anything about needing a kiss host
[2025-06-15T18:48:13Z] <kris_> looking at the script, that question was answered by line 20
[2025-06-15T18:48:23Z] <kris_> yes, it needs a kiss host or at minimum expects one
[2025-06-15T18:56:38Z] <midfavila> i swear to god i must be the only person who's never experienced significant screentear under X
[2025-06-15T18:59:07Z] <nath> i feel like under normal light usage you wouldnt really see it tbh
[2025-06-15T18:59:17Z] <nath> but if you have a lot of on screen movement like in games then welcome to screentear central
[2025-06-15T18:59:32Z] <nath> also does anyone know if pipewire-pulse has been packaged by anyone
[2025-06-15T18:59:37Z] <nath> need it to get audio on flatpak
[2025-06-15T18:59:55Z] <kris_> you can use kiss find to figure that out
[2025-06-15T18:59:59Z] <kris_> if people have labeled their git repos
[2025-06-15T19:00:20Z] <nath> if not i could try packaging it myself but i've never done it before soo
[2025-06-15T19:00:25Z] <nath> meh ig it could be a learning experience
[2025-06-15T19:05:36Z] <midfavila> nath: that would explain it
[2025-06-15T19:05:40Z] <midfavila> the only games i play are like
[2025-06-15T19:05:50Z] <midfavila> either 2D and very simple graphically or slower-paced games
[2025-06-15T19:07:23Z] <nath> also has anyone here heard of xlibre
[2025-06-15T19:07:41Z] <nath> one guy is trying to make x11 good again
[2025-06-15T19:07:51Z] <kris_> one guy is a fucking trumper
[2025-06-15T19:08:03Z] <kris_> midfavila: idk i notice it a lot on desktop too
[2025-06-15T19:08:12Z] <kris_> the main thing i notice with games is that they're just the opposite of smooth on x
[2025-06-15T19:08:39Z] <midfavila> idk maybe i just don't have a particular sensitivity to that
[2025-06-15T19:08:51Z] <midfavila> i've never found anything above 60fps to matter to me
[2025-06-15T19:08:54Z] <nath> i think if xlibre maintainers want it to succeed then they should just cut out all of the bullshit that's just relics of the ages, address the horrible screen tearing and leave it at that
[2025-06-15T19:08:58Z] <midfavila> so minor stutters and stuff are meh
[2025-06-15T19:09:05Z] <nath> yea fair
[2025-06-15T19:09:22Z] <nath> you said you mainly play 2d games so its not like you need max fps for msot of those
[2025-06-15T19:09:27Z] <midfavila> yeah
[2025-06-15T19:09:34Z] <midfavila> turn-based roguelikes aren't exactly demanding
[2025-06-15T19:09:39Z] <kris_> if i can notice a difference it's instantly worthless with the way i treat stuff like that
[2025-06-15T19:09:42Z] <nath> i ONLY play the battle of polytopia on an rtx 7090 with a 60ghz overclocked ryzen 12!!!
[2025-06-15T19:09:57Z] <kris_> but i'm also one of those losers who grind counterstrike so
[2025-06-15T19:09:59Z] <nath> ive never played a roguelike besides maybe hades
[2025-06-15T19:10:07Z] <nath> is hades a roguelike or roguelite i dont fucking know
[2025-06-15T19:10:17Z] <nath> genre names are so stupid
[2025-06-15T19:10:38Z] <nath> "oi yeah m8 you want to play my metroidvania-like-em-up clone??"
[2025-06-15T19:14:02Z] <midfavila> hades is a roguelite
[2025-06-15T19:15:27Z] <nath> what is the difference between the two again
[2025-06-15T19:15:35Z] <nath> roguelike is ALL progress gone on death right
[2025-06-15T19:15:48Z] <nath> and roguelite is where you keep some stuff and you progressively get stronger
[2025-06-15T19:16:19Z] <riteo> nath: yeah pipewire just works™ it's insane
[2025-06-15T19:16:34Z] <riteo> also kris_ yea I use mdev
[2025-06-15T19:16:43Z] <kris_> riteo how does that work out with game controllers and shit
[2025-06-15T19:16:44Z] <nath> i know right?!?!?!?!?! it's actually insane that audio can just work??
[2025-06-15T19:16:58Z] <riteo> kris_: that's an awesome question and one I have obviously already covered ;)
[2025-06-15T19:17:01Z] <riteo> one sec
[2025-06-15T19:17:07Z] <nath> thank god we still aren't on pulseaudio or god forbid sndio
[2025-06-15T19:17:22Z] <nath> alsa would be good if stuff worked on it
[2025-06-15T19:17:28Z] <midfavila> alsa literally works fine 
[2025-06-15T19:17:32Z] <midfavila> what are you on about
[2025-06-15T19:17:33Z] <midfavila> ????????
[2025-06-15T19:17:34Z] <riteo> kris_: here, from my old notes: https://codeberg.org/Riteo/kiss-scripts/src/branch/main/doc/managing-devices.md
[2025-06-15T19:17:41Z] <nath> midfavila im probably just tripping
[2025-06-15T19:17:43Z] <kris_> sweet
[2025-06-15T19:17:48Z] <midfavila> also yes roguelike is total permadeath
[2025-06-15T19:17:52Z] <midfavila> roguelite usually has metaprogression
[2025-06-15T19:17:53Z] <midfavila> so like
[2025-06-15T19:17:57Z] <midfavila> hades has weapons and shit
[2025-06-15T19:18:01Z] <kris_> i always use udevd so i'm very unfamiliar with mdev
[2025-06-15T19:18:09Z] <midfavila> ToME4 has races and classes
[2025-06-15T19:18:10Z] <midfavila> etc
[2025-06-15T19:18:20Z] <kris_> also to be clear you're using mdev and not mdevd right
[2025-06-15T19:18:22Z] <nath> i should start playing more roguelites hades was very fun
[2025-06-15T19:18:35Z] <nath> i also tried one of supergiant's older games transistor was pretty good
[2025-06-15T19:18:48Z] <nath> idk if that classes as a rogue* game though as it wasn't that hard
[2025-06-15T19:18:51Z] <riteo> kris_: it's irrelevant but yea I'm using plain old mdev
[2025-06-15T19:19:00Z] <riteo> if you want I have a package already made
[2025-06-15T19:19:36Z] <midfavila> nath play bastion
[2025-06-15T19:19:38Z] <midfavila> bastion was their first game
[2025-06-15T19:19:43Z] <nath> i might try it
[2025-06-15T19:19:47Z] <midfavila> probably one of my favourite games of all time
[2025-06-15T19:19:47Z] <riteo> it's a script called `group-helper` which looks for a special "id fetcher" using the subsystem as a key
[2025-06-15T19:19:51Z] <nath> i bought transistor on GOG would it be installable on musl
[2025-06-15T19:19:54Z] <midfavila> it's pretty short, you can beat it in an afternoon or two
[2025-06-15T19:19:58Z] <midfavila> but it's soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo good
[2025-06-15T19:20:02Z] <midfavila> i wish they would follow up on it
[2025-06-15T19:20:05Z] <kris_> this is an area i am wildly unfamiliar with so sure
[2025-06-15T19:20:08Z] <midfavila> also hi riteo :D!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[2025-06-15T19:20:13Z] <riteo> then it tries to figure out the vendor and product through whatever different method because linux and then it looks at a lil regex list or something i don't remember
[2025-06-15T19:20:16Z] <riteo> hi mid!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[2025-06-15T19:20:21Z] <kris_> typically id just like
[2025-06-15T19:20:23Z] <riteo> what time is it over there
[2025-06-15T19:20:23Z] <kris_> package steam-udev-rules
[2025-06-15T19:20:25Z] <midfavila> 111111!!1!11!1!!1!1!111!!111!1!
[2025-06-15T19:20:27Z] <midfavila> it's like
[2025-06-15T19:20:28Z] <kris_> and android-udev
[2025-06-15T19:20:30Z] <midfavila> one pm
[2025-06-15T19:20:32Z] <midfavila> ish
[2025-06-15T19:20:37Z] <riteo> kris_: I'm sure you could convert those lists into rule files for my script
[2025-06-15T19:20:42Z] <kris_> probably
[2025-06-15T19:20:49Z] <kris_> im guessing anyway
[2025-06-15T19:21:05Z] <riteo> like, this is an example rule file for my script: https://codeberg.org/Riteo/kiss-scripts/src/branch/main/mdev/groups/hidraw/joystick
[2025-06-15T19:21:46Z] <riteo> it's divided into one directory per subsystem which in turn contains one ruleset per group
[2025-06-15T19:22:10Z] <sewn> .eow
[2025-06-15T19:22:27Z] <riteo> indeed
[2025-06-15T19:22:27Z] <kris_> bookmarked, will keep this in mind
[2025-06-15T19:22:33Z] <riteo> as I said it uses the subsystem name as a key for the ruleset folder and the name of the ruleset for the group to assign the device to
[2025-06-15T19:22:37Z] <kris_> right now i'm thinking about my process here
[2025-06-15T19:22:38Z] <riteo> kris_: :D
[2025-06-15T19:22:45Z] <kris_> it would be too easy to bootstrap my distro from kiss
[2025-06-15T19:25:01Z] <midfavila> he's beginning to believe
[2025-06-15T19:25:25Z] <kris_> you are a fucking horrible influence and should feel bad about it
[2025-06-15T19:25:25Z] <midfavila> cue interstellar music
[2025-06-15T19:25:28Z] <midfavila> yes
[2025-06-15T19:25:29Z] <midfavila> i am
[2025-06-15T19:25:33Z] <midfavila> >:3c
[2025-06-15T19:25:40Z] <midfavila> you WILL smooch your computer
[2025-06-15T19:25:49Z] <kris_> no i'm thinking about like
[2025-06-15T19:25:59Z] <kris_> building out a minimal kiss environment in a VM and using kiss-boostrap to build a tarball for my own thing
[2025-06-15T19:26:13Z] <kris_> because it's just so simple and so close to what i was already going to do that not using it would be illogical
[2025-06-15T19:26:25Z] <kris_> and ive been researching this all day and decided kiss' init setup is exactly what i want as well lol
[2025-06-15T19:26:30Z] <kris_> so pretty much all id be changing is the package manager
[2025-06-15T19:26:53Z] <nath> welcome zlg
[2025-06-15T19:28:54Z] <riteo> It's crazy how kiss is like... The perfect minimal environment
[2025-06-15T19:29:09Z] <riteo> it's really like if alpine turned source-based or something, but even lighter-weight somehow
[2025-06-15T19:29:18Z] <midfavila> >it's like alpine if it didn't suck
[2025-06-15T19:29:19Z] <nath> yup its fucking brilliant
[2025-06-15T19:29:24Z] <riteo> hahahahahahahahah exactly mid
[2025-06-15T19:29:26Z] <nath> ive only been using it for a few days but im already in love
[2025-06-15T19:29:31Z] <riteo> also mid you did not answer me >:(
[2025-06-15T19:29:34Z] <riteo> what time is it over there
[2025-06-15T19:29:43Z] <kris_> i thought he said like 1pm
[2025-06-15T19:29:54Z] <nath> midfavila how come it sucks
[2025-06-15T19:30:02Z] <nath> not saying it doesnt ive just never used it so i dont get the hate
[2025-06-15T19:30:10Z] <riteo> honestly me neither ;)
[2025-06-15T19:30:12Z] <midfavila> riteo: i literally did >:C
[2025-06-15T19:30:12Z] <riteo> like, it's fine
[2025-06-15T19:30:15Z] <riteo> when
[2025-06-15T19:30:16Z] <midfavila> it's like 1pm
[2025-06-15T19:30:20Z] <riteo> oh no
[2025-06-15T19:30:22Z] <midfavila> literally a few minutes ago
[2025-06-15T19:30:29Z] <riteo> I expected a number or smth
[2025-06-15T19:30:35Z] <midfavila> nath: alpine is just a pain in the ass
[2025-06-15T19:30:39Z] <kris_> riteos brain just regex'd the chat
[2025-06-15T19:30:47Z] <riteo> you're joking but I like do that mentally
[2025-06-15T19:30:48Z] <midfavila> everything feels like an uphill battle
[2025-06-15T19:30:48Z] <nath> midfavila is that a byproduct of it being different in every way it can
[2025-06-15T19:30:51Z] <nath> chimera but even more fucked up
[2025-06-15T19:30:54Z] <midfavila> no
[2025-06-15T19:30:59Z] <midfavila> that's a byproduct of it being dogshit
[2025-06-15T19:31:02Z] <riteo> lmao
[2025-06-15T19:31:03Z] <nath> ah i c
[2025-06-15T19:31:07Z] <riteo> I mean it has some nice features
[2025-06-15T19:31:15Z] <riteo> like diskless booting and apk is actually a very nice pkgman IMO
[2025-06-15T19:31:18Z] <kris_> alpines initramfs generator is nice
[2025-06-15T19:31:24Z] <kris_> apk is probably the best package manager there is imo
[2025-06-15T19:31:26Z] <riteo> it's not like Arch linux is perfect, nor debian for the matter
[2025-06-15T19:31:31Z] <nath> no distro is perfect
[2025-06-15T19:31:34Z] <riteo> I might be seriously considering of migrating my mom pc to fedora
[2025-06-15T19:31:38Z] <nath> thats why bedrock exists
[2025-06-15T19:31:47Z] <riteo> it's meta-distros all the way down nath
[2025-06-15T19:31:49Z] <nath> run all the distros so you become the ultimate imperfection
[2025-06-15T19:32:05Z] <riteo> inb4 they make a wrapper for bedrock-likes
[2025-06-15T19:32:11Z] <riteo> and run it on top of multiple Qubes
[2025-06-15T19:33:22Z] <nath> riteo def agree apk is pretty good
[2025-06-15T19:34:06Z] <midfavila> nath: slackware is perfect
[2025-06-15T19:34:09Z] <nath> ig openrc is also an interesting choice but if you want to go systemDless then go all the way with an init faster
[2025-06-15T19:34:17Z] <nath> midfavila couldnt say it any better
[2025-06-15T19:34:22Z] <nath> slackware the purest distro
[2025-06-15T19:34:26Z] <midfavila> unironically
[2025-06-15T19:34:34Z] <midfavila> slackware has something almost no other distro does
[2025-06-15T19:34:38Z] <midfavila> ~vibes~
[2025-06-15T19:34:40Z] <nath> fr
[2025-06-15T19:34:49Z] <nath> like debian is almost as old as it but debian doesnt FEEL old
[2025-06-15T19:34:58Z] <midfavila> debian also barely functions lmfao
[2025-06-15T19:35:05Z] <nath> devuan winning
[2025-06-15T19:35:09Z] <nath> actually nah devuan kinda stinks as well
[2025-06-15T19:35:22Z] <nath> debian: welcome to four years ago
[2025-06-15T19:36:17Z] <riteo> yea 
[2025-06-15T19:36:36Z] <riteo> my mom watches the sweetest DRM juice dripped from various streaming services and it... just stopped working? LMAO
[2025-06-15T19:36:41Z] <nath> fuck drm
[2025-06-15T19:36:49Z] <nath> actually depends on the drm
[2025-06-15T19:36:54Z] <nath> love direct rendering manager
[2025-06-15T19:37:05Z] <riteo> had to flatpak firefox for her but now suspend inhibition is broken because her KDE version i prehistoric
[2025-06-15T19:37:15Z] <nath> what version
[2025-06-15T19:37:16Z] <nath> just curious
[2025-06-15T19:37:18Z] <riteo> like 5
[2025-06-15T19:37:20Z] <nath> bro
[2025-06-15T19:37:21Z] <riteo> some very old version of 5
[2025-06-15T19:37:24Z] <nath> at that point use LTS
[2025-06-15T19:37:43Z] <riteo> dunno exactly what debian runs but it's hideous
[2025-06-15T19:37:47Z] <riteo> like, I get it, it's great for server
[2025-06-15T19:37:51Z] <riteo> but at this point even alpine is more usable lmao
[2025-06-15T19:37:53Z] <nath> debian is probably on kde 2
[2025-06-15T19:38:10Z] <nath> actually nah it doesnt even have kde it only has windowmaker
[2025-06-15T19:38:17Z] <nath> and twm i guess
[2025-06-15T19:38:18Z] <riteo> I just tried fedora on a VM for testing my godot wayland stuff and it just like... worked?
[2025-06-15T19:38:36Z] <nath> fedora is cool but ibm and redhat kinda stink
[2025-06-15T19:38:39Z] <riteo> even the fucking keyboard settings got kept from the installer
[2025-06-15T19:38:42Z] <nath> holy shit
[2025-06-15T19:38:44Z] <riteo> nath: fedora is not redhat's
[2025-06-15T19:38:48Z] <riteo> it's sponsored by it
[2025-06-15T19:38:52Z] <riteo> they make a big deal out of it
[2025-06-15T19:38:53Z] <nath> ohhh
[2025-06-15T19:38:58Z] <midfavila> why is debian good for servers
[2025-06-15T19:39:00Z] <midfavila> explain to me
[2025-06-15T19:39:02Z] <midfavila> right now
[2025-06-15T19:39:04Z] <midfavila> justify it
[2025-06-15T19:39:05Z] <riteo> because you update it once per year
[2025-06-15T19:39:05Z] <nath> midfavila ig because its stable??
[2025-06-15T19:39:08Z] <midfavila> "it... it... it just is!!!"
[2025-06-15T19:39:09Z] <nath> idfk
[2025-06-15T19:39:09Z] <midfavila> slackware
[2025-06-15T19:39:11Z] <riteo> less reboots, more vulnerabilities lmao
[2025-06-15T19:39:12Z] <midfavila> literally slackware
[2025-06-15T19:39:16Z] <riteo> mid
[2025-06-15T19:39:19Z] <midfavila> no
[2025-06-15T19:39:20Z] <midfavila> >:C
[2025-06-15T19:39:26Z] <riteo> you are my favourite smoocher
[2025-06-15T19:39:28Z] <riteo> you know that
[2025-06-15T19:39:28Z] <nath> riteo slackware is the greatest distro
[2025-06-15T19:39:31Z] <midfavila> i reject your notions of sensibility and bestp ractices
[2025-06-15T19:39:35Z] <midfavila> i wil NOT drink the corn syrup
[2025-06-15T19:39:37Z] <riteo> but you can't say that people should switch to a source-based for a server
[2025-06-15T19:39:38Z] <midfavila> i will NOT install debian
[2025-06-15T19:39:41Z] <midfavila> and i will NOT use wayland
[2025-06-15T19:39:46Z] <midfavila> bruv
[2025-06-15T19:39:48Z] <midfavila> slackware is binary
[2025-06-15T19:39:51Z] <riteo> wut
[2025-06-15T19:39:55Z] <nath> riteo it is
[2025-06-15T19:39:56Z] <riteo> isn't it source-based
[2025-06-15T19:39:58Z] <midfavila> no
[2025-06-15T19:39:59Z] <riteo> wth
[2025-06-15T19:40:07Z] <midfavila> sbopkg exists but it's only for extra shit
[2025-06-15T19:40:18Z] <midfavila> the entire distro is distributed as prebuilt packages in "groups"
[2025-06-15T19:40:23Z] <midfavila> and you install groups as needed
[2025-06-15T19:40:25Z] <riteo> wtf, based?
[2025-06-15T19:40:26Z] <riteo> holy shit
[2025-06-15T19:40:29Z] <riteo> I gotta try it then
[2025-06-15T19:40:30Z] <nath> yeah ikr
[2025-06-15T19:40:31Z] <nath> its crazy
[2025-06-15T19:40:32Z] <midfavila> sbopkg is just the AUR for cool people
[2025-06-15T19:40:38Z] <midfavila> there's also uhhh
[2025-06-15T19:40:42Z] <midfavila> slpkg? 
[2025-06-15T19:40:43Z] <midfavila> i think?
[2025-06-15T19:40:46Z] <riteo> I was sure that it was source based or smth
[2025-06-15T19:40:50Z] <nath> isnt it just spkg
[2025-06-15T19:40:51Z] <midfavila> and it has binary distros and dep res and such 
[2025-06-15T19:40:53Z] <midfavila> no
[2025-06-15T19:40:57Z] <midfavila> there's a bunch of alt package managers
[2025-06-15T19:41:00Z] <nath> oh ye
[2025-06-15T19:41:02Z] <riteo> it even has dep res?
[2025-06-15T19:41:07Z] <midfavila> alternatives do
[2025-06-15T19:41:07Z] <riteo> wtf am I thinking of another distro
[2025-06-15T19:41:14Z] <midfavila> by default slackpkg doesn't do dep res 
[2025-06-15T19:41:17Z] <midfavila> because it doesn't need to
[2025-06-15T19:41:18Z] <midfavila> lmoa
[2025-06-15T19:41:18Z] <riteo> oh aight
[2025-06-15T19:41:19Z] <midfavila> lmao
[2025-06-15T19:41:21Z] <riteo> wym
[2025-06-15T19:41:29Z] <midfavila> slackpkg only handles official repos
[2025-06-15T19:41:38Z] <midfavila> official repos only depend on default packages
[2025-06-15T19:41:47Z] <riteo> waaaaaaaaaa
[2025-06-15T19:41:48Z] <midfavila> if you install slackware properly all the deps you'll need for everything are already there
[2025-06-15T19:41:58Z] <riteo> holy based
[2025-06-15T19:41:58Z] <midfavila> yeah i know it's almost like slackware functions like a real OS
[2025-06-15T19:42:02Z] * midfavila sips
[2025-06-15T19:42:06Z] <nath> lol
[2025-06-15T19:42:10Z] <midfavila> also
[2025-06-15T19:42:15Z] <midfavila> my bialetti is very good
[2025-06-15T19:42:21Z] <midfavila> tyvm for your suggestion :3
[2025-06-15T19:42:35Z] <midfavila> i haven't ended up ripping the handle off yet
[2025-06-15T19:42:50Z] <riteo> yes
[2025-06-15T19:42:53Z] <riteo> italian superiority
[2025-06-15T19:42:57Z] <riteo> yw mid
[2025-06-15T19:43:00Z] <riteo> welcome to real coffee
[2025-06-15T19:43:05Z] <midfavila> hey now last time someone said that we had a war
[2025-06-15T19:43:08Z] <midfavila> watching u
[2025-06-15T19:43:09Z] <midfavila> >.>
[2025-06-15T19:43:17Z] <riteo> who what
[2025-06-15T19:43:26Z] <midfavila> pfft never mind
[2025-06-15T19:43:32Z] <riteo> oooooh
[2025-06-15T19:43:34Z] <riteo> yea
[2025-06-15T19:43:35Z] <riteo> that...
[2025-06-15T19:43:49Z] <riteo> nvm, it's all over now
[2025-06-15T19:43:57Z] <riteo> wait aren't you canadian
[2025-06-15T19:44:02Z] <midfavila> yes
[2025-06-15T19:44:07Z] <riteo> did canada also go to war with italy
[2025-06-15T19:44:13Z] <midfavila> yes?
[2025-06-15T19:44:18Z] <midfavila> we were part of the british forces
[2025-06-15T19:44:20Z] <riteo> oh
[2025-06-15T19:44:31Z] <midfavila> the king was in italian parliament talking about it a while ago
[2025-06-15T19:44:31Z] <riteo> aight
[2025-06-15T19:44:31Z] <midfavila> smdh
[2025-06-15T19:44:32Z] <midfavila> my
[2025-06-15T19:44:33Z] <midfavila> head
[2025-06-15T19:44:40Z] <midfavila> IMAGINE not watching parliament 
[2025-06-15T19:44:52Z] <riteo> I was going to make a joke about how we're besties now given Meloni's obession with trump but it does not work
[2025-06-15T19:45:10Z] <riteo> midfavila: every single political crap that this government does is only pain and despair
[2025-06-15T19:45:13Z] <midfavila> tbf carney is a shitbag
[2025-06-15T19:45:21Z] <riteo> they look at trump with a note block in hand and scribble as furiously as they can
[2025-06-15T19:45:27Z] <midfavila> literally his first bill was essentially a canadian patriot act
[2025-06-15T19:45:28Z] <riteo> they just passed a bunch of laws for the most stupid shit
[2025-06-15T19:45:41Z] <midfavila> if C-2 passes we're gigacooked
[2025-06-15T19:45:42Z] <riteo> IIUC they even made _at least_ a few forms of protest straight up illegal
[2025-06-15T19:45:42Z] <nath> midfavila aint no fucking way
[2025-06-15T19:45:43Z] <midfavila> bunt even
[2025-06-15T19:45:46Z] <midfavila> yep
[2025-06-15T19:46:00Z] <nath> isnt c-2 the one where they're basically fucking with the media
[2025-06-15T19:46:01Z] <riteo> we had a fucking referendum
[2025-06-15T19:46:03Z] <nath> or am i misremembering
[2025-06-15T19:46:13Z] <midfavila> it's a bunch of shit
[2025-06-15T19:46:17Z] <riteo> it had a lot of stuff that protected workers, the same workers this government says to protect
[2025-06-15T19:46:18Z] <midfavila> it's phrased as being about border security
[2025-06-15T19:46:25Z] <riteo> and they went like "uuhhhh, DONT VOTE"
[2025-06-15T19:46:29Z] <nath> ok im probably remembering wrong then
[2025-06-15T19:46:31Z] <midfavila> bt it includes a bunch of shit that expands government surveillance powers
[2025-06-15T19:46:32Z] <riteo> and we didn't even reach the goddamn quorum, because obviously we have one
[2025-06-15T19:46:38Z] <nath> midfavila of course it fucking does
[2025-06-15T19:46:41Z] <midfavila> including the ability to force companies to disclose user data
[2025-06-15T19:46:46Z] <riteo> bruh
[2025-06-15T19:46:49Z] <nath> >->
[2025-06-15T19:47:04Z] <midfavila> https://www.parl.ca/DocumentViewer/en/45-1/bill/C-2/first-reading
[2025-06-15T19:47:09Z] <midfavila> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/liberal-legislation-border-fentanyl-1.7550684
[2025-06-15T19:47:13Z] <riteo> it's not unlike the DDL Sicurezza which is for "safety" but adds stuff that only makes the fucking fascists in our state safer
[2025-06-15T19:47:17Z] <midfavila> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-border-bill-c2-criticism-1.7558557
[2025-06-15T19:47:22Z] <riteo> like
[2025-06-15T19:47:41Z] <riteo> we even had a national holiday that was a celebration of the partisans and stuff like that
[2025-06-15T19:47:53Z] <riteo> and because the pope died a week earlier the government asked for "sobriety"
[2025-06-15T19:48:05Z] <midfavila> do people in italy actually care about the pop
[2025-06-15T19:48:06Z] <midfavila> poep
[2025-06-15T19:48:06Z] <riteo> even the fucking tiniest celebrations were excuses to identify people
[2025-06-15T19:48:07Z] <midfavila> pope
[2025-06-15T19:48:09Z] <riteo> yes
[2025-06-15T19:48:09Z] <riteo> a lot
[2025-06-15T19:48:13Z] <midfavila> wack
[2025-06-15T19:48:22Z] <midfavila> basically nobody here gave a shit
[2025-06-15T19:48:22Z] <riteo> but it was 100% an excuse
[2025-06-15T19:48:24Z] <midfavila> it was like
[2025-06-15T19:48:28Z] <midfavila> "oh hey the old man died"
[2025-06-15T19:48:33Z] <midfavila> "meh"
[2025-06-15T19:48:41Z] <riteo> like
[2025-06-15T19:48:44Z] <riteo> the people in our government
[2025-06-15T19:48:51Z] <riteo> even their fucking grandchilds
[2025-06-15T19:49:00Z] <riteo> were mostly found in FASCIST parades
[2025-06-15T19:49:05Z] <riteo> like literal sore arm parades
[2025-06-15T19:49:06Z] <nath> ffs
[2025-06-15T19:49:29Z] <midfavila> yeah i mean we're watching major countries rapidly descend into fascism 
[2025-06-15T19:49:37Z] <midfavila> as a direct conseqence of capitalism falling into crisis
[2025-06-15T19:49:42Z] <riteo> it's phrased a bit badly but rest assured that they got caught multiple times and all the fucking time they were from fucking FdI (the majority party)
[2025-06-15T19:49:44Z] <midfavila> and regular people getting fed up with shit
[2025-06-15T19:50:03Z] <nath> i fully support neets accelerating the fuckup of capitalism
[2025-06-15T19:50:05Z] <midfavila> unfortunately there's no USSR to tackle whoever the next hitler is going to be 
[2025-06-15T19:50:18Z] <midfavila> nath: it's important to remember that there's no harm that capital won't defer onto labour
[2025-06-15T19:50:23Z] <nath> true
[2025-06-15T19:50:34Z] <nath> we're kinda fucked no matter what happens lol
[2025-06-15T19:50:39Z] <midfavila> accelerationism without solidarity is counterrevolutionary activity
[2025-06-15T19:50:44Z] <midfavila> :gun:
[2025-06-15T19:50:51Z] <riteo> it's doubly funny here
[2025-06-15T19:51:03Z] <riteo> because we are like, both antifascist and extremely ethnically diverse
[2025-06-15T19:51:18Z] <riteo> even ignoring the "obvious" cases with immigrants from like oriental countries
[2025-06-15T19:51:41Z] <riteo> the south is full of brown-skinned people and other groups of people who would not be defined white by the american standard
[2025-06-15T19:51:59Z] <riteo> yet, some fucking idiot decided to make a big deal with "italian features" and crap like that
[2025-06-15T19:52:04Z] <riteo> we're literally racist between italians ffs
[2025-06-15T19:52:09Z] <midfavila> i mean
[2025-06-15T19:52:10Z] <nath> bro
[2025-06-15T19:52:16Z] <midfavila> have you read about how the celts were treated
[2025-06-15T19:52:20Z] <midfavila> :v
[2025-06-15T19:52:23Z] <riteo> the what
[2025-06-15T19:52:33Z] <midfavila> celts
[2025-06-15T19:52:40Z] <midfavila> natives of the british isles and ireland
[2025-06-15T19:52:42Z] <riteo> oh
[2025-06-15T19:52:44Z] <midfavila> and the isle of man and stuff
[2025-06-15T19:52:51Z] <riteo> how were they treated
[2025-06-15T19:52:58Z] <midfavila> well there were a series of minor genocides
[2025-06-15T19:53:02Z] <nath> no but i can imagine it being fucked up
[2025-06-15T19:53:17Z] <nath> midfavila holy hell
[2025-06-15T19:53:23Z] <midfavila> and then when millions of them fled to NA to survive they were considered part of the out-group until like
[2025-06-15T19:53:26Z] <midfavila> the 60s or some shit
[2025-06-15T19:53:35Z] <riteo> BTW I'm kinda mixing some stuff, the idiot talked about italian features to exclude like black people but that's still super funny because we're mostly brown-ish in the south if not straight "non-white" whatever that means
[2025-06-15T19:53:39Z] <midfavila> nath: yeah the famine in ireland and the clearances in scotland
[2025-06-15T19:53:49Z] <riteo> and that's obvious because we have literal racism between northen italians and southern italians
[2025-06-15T19:54:02Z] <riteo> midfavila: wtf
[2025-06-15T19:54:07Z] <midfavila> i'm not familiar with the history of wales or brittany or cornwall or etc but i'm sure there were issues there too
[2025-06-15T19:54:23Z] <riteo> literal face-eating jaguar party logic
[2025-06-15T19:54:30Z] <nath> britain was pretty linguistically diverse as well
[2025-06-15T19:54:35Z] <midfavila> >get genocided because your landlord decided that it was more profitable to farm sheep than to allow you to live
[2025-06-15T19:54:40Z] <midfavila> nath: absolutely
[2025-06-15T19:54:56Z] <midfavila> welsh, cornish, scottish gaelic, irish gaelic
[2025-06-15T19:55:01Z] <nath> i was about to say cornish
[2025-06-15T19:55:05Z] <midfavila> i think the isle of man has its own dialect of gaelic
[2025-06-15T19:55:14Z] <midfavila> or rather language in that family
[2025-06-15T19:55:24Z] <midfavila> p sure brittany has its own
[2025-06-15T19:55:41Z] <nath> i was thinking of learning cornish but im already pretty far into spanish and have been picking up toki pona
[2025-06-15T19:55:47Z] <riteo> oh at least from that point of view there are no issues here luckily
[2025-06-15T19:55:49Z] <midfavila> english was sort of kind of imposed on the residents
[2025-06-15T19:55:52Z] <midfavila> lol
[2025-06-15T19:55:54Z] <nath> midfavila yep
[2025-06-15T19:55:59Z] <riteo> like every single region, if not even province, has its own dialect
[2025-06-15T19:56:03Z] <midfavila> the british government literally beat people for speaking non-english languages
[2025-06-15T19:56:07Z] <midfavila> including in canaad 
[2025-06-15T19:56:08Z] <midfavila> canada*
[2025-06-15T19:56:13Z] <riteo> if not straight language like neapolitan, sardininan, venetian, friulian, sicilian
[2025-06-15T19:56:17Z] <nath> midfavila even more of a reason to despise my own country!!
[2025-06-15T19:56:24Z] <midfavila> nath we can trade
[2025-06-15T19:56:26Z] <midfavila> please let me move to the uk
[2025-06-15T19:56:28Z] <midfavila> pelase 
[2025-06-15T19:56:29Z] <midfavila> qwq
[2025-06-15T19:56:37Z] <midfavila> i desperately want to get out of canada
[2025-06-15T19:56:47Z] <riteo> if italy has one great thing is that it takes very little distance to stumble into a very different culture
[2025-06-15T19:56:56Z] <nath> midfavila the land of tv licenses, chippy chips and culture erasure?
[2025-06-15T19:56:56Z] <midfavila> our housing minister just said that high house prices weren't the issue
[2025-06-15T19:57:03Z] <nath> its pretty shit here as well
[2025-06-15T19:57:06Z] <midfavila> when our median house price is 17x the median wage
[2025-06-15T19:57:09Z] <midfavila> and we have fuckin
[2025-06-15T19:57:10Z] <midfavila> scuryv
[2025-06-15T19:57:12Z] <midfavila> scurvy
[2025-06-15T19:57:14Z] <midfavila> and measles and shit
[2025-06-15T19:57:25Z] <midfavila> waiting for ricketts, the plague, and leprosy to make a comeback, ngl
[2025-06-15T19:57:35Z] <nath> dancing plague
[2025-06-15T19:57:39Z] <midfavila> i wish
[2025-06-15T19:57:48Z] <midfavila> okay i have to head out so i gtg for a bit
[2025-06-15T19:57:50Z] <nath> alr cya
[2025-06-15T19:57:53Z] <midfavila> bbl
[2025-06-15T19:57:58Z] <midfavila> riteo behave
[2025-06-15T19:58:10Z] <nath> im gonna go get steam setup ill stay in chat thou
[2025-06-15T19:58:13Z] <midfavila> you need to watch sewn while i run out for milk and cigarettes
[2025-06-15T19:58:24Z] <sewn> meow
[2025-06-15T19:58:30Z] <nath> holy smokes
[2025-06-15T19:58:34Z] <sewn> new person
[2025-06-15T19:58:39Z] <midfavila> yes
[2025-06-15T19:58:43Z] <midfavila> be nice sewn
[2025-06-15T19:58:44Z] <midfavila> no pipebombs 
[2025-06-15T19:58:50Z] <riteo> midfavilla aight
[2025-06-15T19:58:53Z] <nath> im not even registered
[2025-06-15T19:59:01Z] <sewn> then register
[2025-06-15T19:59:05Z] <nath> but im kinda liking this so ill probably register soon
[2025-06-15T19:59:11Z] <riteo> nath: how is your time here
[2025-06-15T19:59:14Z] <riteo> oh nice
[2025-06-15T19:59:15Z] <nath> riteo pretty good yeah
[2025-06-15T19:59:17Z] <sewn> how did you get here?
[2025-06-15T19:59:24Z] <nath> kiss linux community site
[2025-06-15T19:59:30Z] <riteo> i think that this is a pretty good summary of what happens here
[2025-06-15T19:59:41Z] <nath> r/kisslinux was kinda inactive and also reddit has been going down the shitter
[2025-06-15T19:59:55Z] <nath> riteo is this also somewhat representative of irc as a whole
[2025-06-15T20:00:00Z] <sewn> but are you a kiss user
[2025-06-15T20:00:03Z] <nath> yes
[2025-06-15T20:00:14Z] <sewn> nice
[2025-06-15T20:00:14Z] <riteo> * + *  r e d d i t  * + *  
[2025-06-15T20:00:32Z] <riteo> it's getting so bad indeed
[2025-06-15T20:00:35Z] <nath> i was gonna use gentoo but like
[2025-06-15T20:00:45Z] <nath> kiss has so few packages that i can just guarantee that most will build without issue
[2025-06-15T20:00:46Z] <riteo> nath: no idea
[2025-06-15T20:00:57Z] <riteo> most other channels i look at are pretty serios-y
[2025-06-15T20:01:10Z] <riteo> nath: i wouldn't bet on that lmao
[2025-06-15T20:01:24Z] <nath> riteo yeah ive had to do some stuff to make specific things build
[2025-06-15T20:01:36Z] <nath> like i mainly use O3 but a lot of stuff doesnt build with it so i just switch to Os when that happens
[2025-06-15T20:01:40Z] <riteo> yeah it's very context dependendt
[2025-06-15T20:02:05Z] <nath> and my thermals and power are shit so i have to use 4 jobs when my pc can usually do 12 ;-;
[2025-06-15T20:02:13Z] <riteo> oof
[2025-06-15T20:02:13Z] <nath> its not too bad though
[2025-06-15T20:02:22Z] <nath> amd wraith prism on a 2600x
[2025-06-15T20:02:34Z] <nath> 650w psu with a vega 64 (which recommends 750)
[2025-06-15T20:02:43Z] <riteo> 2600 <3
[2025-06-15T20:02:59Z] <riteo> I have the regular version and I fixed any thermal issues with the biggest Be Quiet! cooler I found
[2025-06-15T20:03:01Z] <nath> ive been saving up for a new pc though since this current system is basically a scrapyard pc
[2025-06-15T20:03:02Z] <riteo> like black rock 4 something
[2025-06-15T20:03:19Z] <nath> basically all of my parts except the case, secondary hdd and motherboard are second hand
[2025-06-15T20:03:21Z] <nath> or third or fourth hand
[2025-06-15T20:03:31Z] <riteo> barely fits the case but it's so overpowered that my cpu never goes over 80° I think
[2025-06-15T20:03:39Z] <nath> if it works it works
[2025-06-15T20:03:43Z] <riteo> even when using fucking blender to render on the cpu for 10+ hours
[2025-06-15T20:03:47Z] <nath> jesus
[2025-06-15T20:04:05Z] <riteo> yea it's got like a TDP of 200W while the cpu is I think 100?
[2025-06-15T20:04:24Z] <riteo> I used to do that and it's the reason I got the cooler actually
[2025-06-15T20:05:09Z] <nath> riteo theres no way a 2600 draws 100w
[2025-06-15T20:05:13Z] <nath> i might be wrong though
[2025-06-15T20:05:22Z] <riteo> I can't recall
[2025-06-15T20:05:23Z] <riteo> no idae
[2025-06-15T20:05:40Z] <riteo> Again I solved any doubt by getting the biggest cooler I could find for like 60 euros or smth
[2025-06-15T20:05:46Z] <nath> yeah 65w tdp
[2025-06-15T20:05:51Z] <riteo> lmaooooooo
[2025-06-15T20:06:06Z] <riteo> I mean tdp is a lie both for the processor and the cooler
[2025-06-15T20:06:12Z] <riteo> since stuff like AVX is not included in the estimate
[2025-06-15T20:06:16Z] <nath> true
[2025-06-15T20:06:18Z] <riteo> and that's definitely what made blender burn my pc
[2025-06-15T20:06:52Z] <riteo> nyways
[2025-06-15T20:06:54Z] <riteo> welcome nath
[2025-06-15T20:07:01Z] <nath> riteo thx m8
[2025-06-15T20:07:08Z] <nath> also what happened to sewn they just kinda vanished
[2025-06-15T20:07:21Z] <sewn> I have nothing to say
[2025-06-15T20:07:23Z] <nath> fairs
[2025-06-15T20:07:44Z] <nath> im gonna go register now since nickserv has been screaming at me about this nick being taken
[2025-06-15T20:07:50Z] <nath> brb
[2025-06-15T20:08:50Z] <riteo> that's a simple way to fix the issue
[2025-06-15T20:08:51Z] <riteo> lol
[2025-06-15T20:08:57Z] <riteo> BTW i'm gonna change my alias too, soon
[2025-06-15T20:09:05Z] <riteo> just gotta figure out a decent one
[2025-06-15T20:09:52Z] <riteo> I'm defo going to choose a new fantasy name, I tried thinking about "traditional" nicknames but they all suck hard, I can't make a decent one lmao
[2025-06-15T20:10:15Z] <sewn> whatsbwronng with
[2025-06-15T20:10:16Z] <sewn> tirteo
[2025-06-15T20:10:17Z] <nathhhh> ok im back chat
[2025-06-15T20:10:22Z] <riteo> sewn: lotta stuff
[2025-06-15T20:10:31Z] <riteo> it's actually quite old and holds a lot of... feelings
[2025-06-15T20:10:31Z] <sewn> yyoy ccould hage gonee wirh bath_
[2025-06-15T20:10:33Z] <sewn> nath_
[2025-06-15T20:10:36Z] <sewn> not nathhhhh
[2025-06-15T20:10:41Z] <riteo> I think that riteo is a great name but it has done its duty
[2025-06-15T20:10:45Z] <riteo> new name new me
[2025-06-15T20:10:48Z] <sewn> aaokay
[2025-06-15T20:11:02Z] <nathhhh> honestly whenever a name is taken i just spam the last letter a few times it gets the job done
[2025-06-15T20:11:11Z] <riteo> well, it works
[2025-06-15T20:11:19Z] <riteo> I'm not going to complain :P
[2025-06-15T20:11:29Z] <nathhhh> if it works dont touch it
[2025-06-15T20:13:30Z] <sewn> I hate you already
[2025-06-15T20:13:39Z] <riteo> lmao
[2025-06-15T20:13:42Z] <riteo> why sewn
[2025-06-15T20:14:00Z] <sewn> I don't like "if it works don't touch it"
[2025-06-15T20:14:06Z] <riteo> I like that though
[2025-06-15T20:14:12Z] <sewn> I hate you then
[2025-06-15T20:14:14Z] <riteo> that's solid advice
[2025-06-15T20:14:18Z] <nathhhh> towering rage
[2025-06-15T20:14:19Z] <riteo> I see
[2025-06-15T20:14:37Z] <sewn> kiss wouldn't be here with this advice
[2025-06-15T20:14:49Z] <sewn> why the author was working fine with arch
[2025-06-15T20:14:56Z] <sewn> why make something new
[2025-06-15T20:14:58Z] <riteo> I don't think that would count with working
[2025-06-15T20:15:03Z] <riteo> you gotta define working first
[2025-06-15T20:15:07Z] <riteo> it's a rule of thumb, it's not law
[2025-06-15T20:15:13Z] <sewn> it doesn't break
[2025-06-15T20:15:16Z] <nathhhh> if it functions and you're happy with it don't touch it
[2025-06-15T20:15:17Z] <sewn> works as required
[2025-06-15T20:15:25Z] <sewn> nathhhh: see that's different
[2025-06-15T20:15:28Z] <riteo> IMO it breaks indeed lol
[2025-06-15T20:15:29Z] <sewn> that's I like
[2025-06-15T20:15:31Z] <riteo> like, on my workstation
[2025-06-15T20:15:38Z] <riteo> whenever I turn it up firefox take like 2 minutes to work
[2025-06-15T20:15:41Z] <nathhhh> there i have patched the flaw in my thought process
[2025-06-15T20:15:46Z] <sewn> I like you
[2025-06-15T20:15:49Z] <riteo> in the meantime there's infinite loading and I have NO IDEA why
[2025-06-15T20:15:59Z] <riteo> wahooo
[2025-06-15T20:16:01Z] <sewn> its firefox
[2025-06-15T20:16:18Z] <riteo> whatever that is it's clearly not working
[2025-06-15T20:16:29Z] <nathhhh> ive been using links more and more in an effort to avoid having to compile firefox lol
[2025-06-15T20:16:38Z] <riteo> links is great
[2025-06-15T20:16:42Z] <nathhhh> sure is
[2025-06-15T20:16:46Z] <riteo> although yk what I'd really like to see
[2025-06-15T20:16:49Z] <riteo> a reader-focused browser
[2025-06-15T20:16:58Z] <nathhhh> also browsh would be cool
[2025-06-15T20:16:58Z] <riteo> like, 99% of my time on firefox when not using apps is with the reader mode
[2025-06-15T20:17:13Z] <riteo> it gets rid of crappy paywalls, ads, popups, battery burners and crap like that
[2025-06-15T20:17:15Z] <nathhhh> its like a step up from links, it's still fully text based but it can actually kinda render simple graphics besides just text
[2025-06-15T20:17:16Z] <riteo> it's. just. text
[2025-06-15T20:17:27Z] <nathhhh> reader mode is the best feature
[2025-06-15T20:17:30Z] <riteo> tbh I'd even be happy with a GUI based one
[2025-06-15T20:17:33Z] <riteo> gimme proportional text
[2025-06-15T20:17:41Z] <nathhhh> i was using qutebrowser for a while as well on previous distros
[2025-06-15T20:18:29Z] <riteo> I should try alternative browsers
[2025-06-15T20:18:35Z] <riteo> also I can't wait to see servo finally ready
[2025-06-15T20:18:41Z] <nathhhh> you ever heard of the gopher net
[2025-06-15T20:18:45Z] <riteo> yea
[2025-06-15T20:18:49Z] <riteo> I also browsed gemini for a while
[2025-06-15T20:18:52Z] <nathhhh> its pretty cool but not a lot of browsers support it
[2025-06-15T20:18:53Z] <riteo> then just... forgot about it
[2025-06-15T20:19:01Z] <riteo> my daily life changed a lot recently
[2025-06-15T20:19:03Z] <nathhhh> i think lynx can view gopherholes but not links
[2025-06-15T20:19:04Z] <riteo> and will change even more
[2025-06-15T20:19:16Z] <sewn> chromium everything else except that nim tui browser sucks
[2025-06-15T20:21:43Z] <nathhhh> honestly
[2025-06-15T20:21:54Z] <nathhhh> the web in general kinda stinks now
[2025-06-15T20:22:11Z] <nathhhh> more about revenue and cashflow than sharing something cool
[2025-06-15T20:22:22Z] <riteo> yea
[2025-06-15T20:22:28Z] <riteo> literally unusable without a content blocker
[2025-06-15T20:22:31Z] <riteo> but I gotta say
[2025-06-15T20:22:37Z] <riteo> without js it's infinitely more bearable
[2025-06-15T20:22:46Z] <nathhhh> noscript right?
[2025-06-15T20:22:53Z] <riteo> and I even disable third party crap because I'm going to use reader mode anyways, so who cares if the css is broken
[2025-06-15T20:22:57Z] <riteo> nope nathhhh, all you need is ublock
[2025-06-15T20:23:06Z] <riteo> it has a noscript mode with granular per domain contorl
[2025-06-15T20:23:07Z] <riteo> control
[2025-06-15T20:23:13Z] <nathhhh> oh damn i didnt know that
[2025-06-15T20:23:24Z] <sewn> nathhhh: this is exactly why I don't get people who use anything that isn't chromium 
[2025-06-15T20:23:38Z] <sewn> web is so shit you can't get by a basic browser
[2025-06-15T20:23:53Z] <riteo> sewn: chromium is very good code-wise but no real ublock = no bearable web for me
[2025-06-15T20:23:54Z] <nathhhh> it's kind of a black and white issue
[2025-06-15T20:23:56Z] <nathhhh> you either:
[2025-06-15T20:24:03Z] <sewn> ublock works for me
[2025-06-15T20:24:07Z] <nathhhh> - go all out with a heavier chromium or firefox based browser with several extensions
[2025-06-15T20:24:07Z] <nathhhh> OR
[2025-06-15T20:24:08Z] <sewn> ungoogled of course
[2025-06-15T20:24:14Z] <nathhhh> - links or lynx which is literally just text
[2025-06-15T20:24:19Z] <riteo> do you still have manifest v2 sewn?
[2025-06-15T20:24:22Z] <sewn> nathhhh: and doesn't function at all
[2025-06-15T20:24:29Z] <sewn> I'm not sure riteo I nnever cared
[2025-06-15T20:24:31Z] <nathhhh> sewn yeah thats a problem with links
[2025-06-15T20:24:35Z] <riteo> you do you sewn
[2025-06-15T20:24:40Z] <riteo> also it heavily depends on the website in question
[2025-06-15T20:24:48Z] <nathhhh> i dont mind it since most sites i visit now have a low amount of css and js shit but it definitely stinks for most ppl
[2025-06-15T20:24:48Z] <sewn> anything in your daily lifenlol
[2025-06-15T20:24:51Z] <riteo> most "blog" style things just work
[2025-06-15T20:24:59Z] <riteo> it's the webapps which don't work but tbh, they're a different class of content
[2025-06-15T20:25:11Z] <sewn> which is what matters
[2025-06-15T20:25:15Z] <riteo> then you can do both
[2025-06-15T20:25:22Z] <riteo> I unironically do that on my crappy shoephone
[2025-06-15T20:25:23Z] <sewn> sounds nice
[2025-06-15T20:25:36Z] <sewn> I love my chromiu
[2025-06-15T20:25:48Z] <riteo> I accepted that I'll need to have a default copy of chromium for webapps which I install as PWA and a "forgetful" copy of firefox for everything else
[2025-06-15T20:25:50Z] <nathhhh> a while back i tried ungoogled chromium
[2025-06-15T20:25:58Z] <nathhhh> 6 hours to compile but it was worth it definitely
[2025-06-15T20:26:14Z] <sewn> ahha yess
[2025-06-15T20:26:17Z] <riteo> also there's like a political (eh) thing between them
[2025-06-15T20:26:22Z] <sewn> I prefer that over firefox
[2025-06-15T20:26:29Z] <riteo> like, using chromium means making google the de facto king of the web
[2025-06-15T20:26:32Z] <riteo> they can go off script, who cares
[2025-06-15T20:26:36Z] <riteo> everyone is using chromium anyways
[2025-06-15T20:26:38Z] <nathhhh> you cant win with any browser
[2025-06-15T20:26:44Z] <nathhhh> mozilla is doing some questionable shit right now
[2025-06-15T20:26:46Z] <riteo> firefox is the last bastion
[2025-06-15T20:26:47Z] <riteo> oh obviously
[2025-06-15T20:26:51Z] <riteo> but at least it's a different thing
[2025-06-15T20:26:55Z] <nathhhh> true
[2025-06-15T20:27:05Z] <sewn> ff died long aggo
[2025-06-15T20:27:05Z] <riteo> the minority in this case has to be nourished or it becomes chromium and nothing else
[2025-06-15T20:27:09Z] <riteo> it didn't
[2025-06-15T20:27:14Z] <sewn> I have hope in servo 
[2025-06-15T20:27:15Z] <riteo> I'm using librewolf with no issues whatsoever
[2025-06-15T20:27:17Z] <sewn> fuck ladybird
[2025-06-15T20:27:18Z] <riteo> oh yeah
[2025-06-15T20:27:22Z] <riteo> servo is the latest spark of hope
[2025-06-15T20:27:26Z] <sewn> shits a pain in the ass to bootstrap
[2025-06-15T20:27:27Z] <riteo> what's wrong with ladybird
[2025-06-15T20:27:29Z] <riteo> the more the better
[2025-06-15T20:27:40Z] <sewn> hurr durr you need glibc because we use Microsoft for everything
[2025-06-15T20:27:45Z] <riteo> eh
[2025-06-15T20:27:47Z] <riteo> who cares
[2025-06-15T20:27:49Z] <sewn> >binaries are pulled by force
[2025-06-15T20:27:55Z] <sewn> >just trust me bro
[2025-06-15T20:28:00Z] <riteo> it's experimental anyways, isn't it?
[2025-06-15T20:28:07Z] <sewn> sigh
[2025-06-15T20:28:09Z] <riteo> no need to be this aggressive with alternative browsers
[2025-06-15T20:28:13Z] <nathhhh> i dont get libc dependency
[2025-06-15T20:28:15Z] <nathhhh> like
[2025-06-15T20:28:18Z] <riteo> it's a miracle in the first place that they exist
[2025-06-15T20:28:23Z] <nathhhh> why does this tiny ass program NEED glibc
[2025-06-15T20:28:28Z] <sewn> oh it is not tiny
[2025-06-15T20:28:37Z] <riteo> well it's kinda obvious, glibc has non standard features
[2025-06-15T20:28:37Z] <sewn> it requires vcpkg at build time
[2025-06-15T20:28:45Z] <sewn> that too most likely
[2025-06-15T20:28:52Z] <riteo> in their defense they have some nifty stack tracing tools for debug and stuff
[2025-06-15T20:28:57Z] <riteo> but there are libraries which do mostly the same job
[2025-06-15T20:29:21Z] <sewn> I'd like ladybird if it were easy to compile and the maintainers didnt give me the ick
[2025-06-15T20:29:29Z] <riteo> let it mature first
[2025-06-15T20:29:32Z] <riteo> it's not like servo is easy to compile lol
[2025-06-15T20:29:40Z] <riteo> I don't think it even builds on "vanilla" kiss
[2025-06-15T20:29:41Z] <sewn> I don't need something to mature to know its good riteo
[2025-06-15T20:29:47Z] <riteo> sewn
[2025-06-15T20:29:47Z] <nathhhh> also the proprietary scourge known as content drm not working with musl pisses me off so much even though i dont view that much drm protected content online
[2025-06-15T20:29:56Z] <riteo> anything is good in the current situation
[2025-06-15T20:30:03Z] <riteo> just gimme different options
[2025-06-15T20:30:05Z] <sewn> buh
[2025-06-15T20:30:06Z] <riteo> even crappy idc
[2025-06-15T20:30:16Z] <sewn> okay go use IE 
[2025-06-15T20:30:24Z] <riteo> what's the point of a standard if there's only one impl
[2025-06-15T20:30:36Z] <sewn> standard? pfft
[2025-06-15T20:30:41Z] <riteo> sewn the web is open
[2025-06-15T20:30:45Z] <sewn> sure it is
[2025-06-15T20:30:50Z] <sewn> theoretically it is
[2025-06-15T20:30:58Z] <riteo> it's literally the only thing between us and black holes of data like instagram/tiktok/twitter
[2025-06-15T20:30:58Z] <sewn> in reality? no website cares
[2025-06-15T20:31:06Z] <riteo> yk not everything is corpo website
[2025-06-15T20:31:15Z] <riteo> there's a crapton of little websites and tools made by people who actually care
[2025-06-15T20:31:15Z] <sewn> but that's saddly what matters
[2025-06-15T20:31:18Z] <riteo> and?
[2025-06-15T20:31:30Z] <sewn> no and it simply matters
[2025-06-15T20:31:34Z] <riteo> who said you can't have chromium for every corpo thing and a real browser for real content?
[2025-06-15T20:31:37Z] <sewn> if it doesn't work its a net loss
[2025-06-15T20:31:41Z] <riteo> people installed flash to view certain websites ffs
[2025-06-15T20:31:46Z] <riteo> why are you this aggressive fr
[2025-06-15T20:31:58Z] <sewn> I'm passionate
[2025-06-15T20:31:59Z] <nathhhh> why the fuck did adobe completely nuke flash
[2025-06-15T20:32:05Z] <riteo> it sucked
[2025-06-15T20:32:07Z] <nathhhh> they could have just stopped development on it and left it there
[2025-06-15T20:32:14Z] <riteo> it was unironically dangerous
[2025-06-15T20:32:18Z] <sewn> they were paid
[2025-06-15T20:32:21Z] <nathhhh> riteo how so
[2025-06-15T20:32:28Z] <riteo> a crapton of security bugs
[2025-06-15T20:32:31Z] <riteo> from what I heard
[2025-06-15T20:32:32Z] <nathhhh> ok that explains it
[2025-06-15T20:32:46Z] <nathhhh> still though
[2025-06-15T20:32:48Z] <riteo> that might be the reason that the open source reimpl has been made in rust lol
[2025-06-15T20:33:06Z] <nathhhh> there could have been a better approach than to completely block off like 90% of legacy shit to the average layman
[2025-06-15T20:33:22Z] <riteo> I mean you can still get the runtime if you so insist
[2025-06-15T20:33:23Z] <sewn> riteo: also apple didnt like them
[2025-06-15T20:33:30Z] <riteo> apple doesn't like the web either
[2025-06-15T20:33:37Z] <nathhhh> riteo apple doesnt like anything
[2025-06-15T20:33:43Z] <nathhhh> (except money)
[2025-06-15T20:33:43Z] <sewn> other than themselves
[2025-06-15T20:33:49Z] <sewn> aand money yes
[2025-06-15T20:33:57Z] <riteo> anything that makes them get less apps on the app store means less 30% cut from every transaction
[2025-06-15T20:34:39Z] <riteo> sewn IIRC you're relatively yound aren't you? Why are you so hopeless for something so, escuse me... trivial?
[2025-06-15T20:34:59Z] <riteo> I'm passionate too but I'm not here defending chromium and going "eh, we're cooked anyways"
[2025-06-15T20:35:19Z] <riteo> it's a document format ffs, how hard can it be to keep the crap to one side and save the 99%?
[2025-06-15T20:35:44Z] <riteo> if I asked you to count the websites that only necessarily work on chromium, you'd probably get me what, 10, 30? Mostly webapps
[2025-06-15T20:35:47Z] <sewn> it was better if it was as simple as that
[2025-06-15T20:36:14Z] <riteo> but 99% of web is `<main>` `<article>` a lot of js and CSS but at the core it's still paragraphs and headings
[2025-06-15T20:36:22Z] <riteo> sewn: simple as what
[2025-06-15T20:36:29Z] <sewn> "just a document format"
[2025-06-15T20:36:33Z] <riteo> sewn
[2025-06-15T20:36:37Z] <riteo> look at the source of my crappy website
[2025-06-15T20:36:38Z] <riteo> https://www.riteo.dev/blog/showing-my-stuff.html
[2025-06-15T20:36:57Z] <sewn> I did not say simple html is impossible
[2025-06-15T20:36:57Z] <riteo> and tell me that this is hopeless, nosensical, heavy and that there's no chance for the web to be a good place
[2025-06-15T20:37:15Z] <sewn> there's no chance yes
[2025-06-15T20:37:21Z] <sewn> you have to live in your own corner
[2025-06-15T20:37:23Z] <riteo> I disagree
[2025-06-15T20:37:25Z] <sewn> with others I guess
[2025-06-15T20:37:30Z] <riteo> you _always_ have to live in your own corner
[2025-06-15T20:37:33Z] <sewn> but the rest of the web will still he terrible
[2025-06-15T20:37:43Z] <sewn> be*
[2025-06-15T20:37:45Z] <riteo> it's like saying that there's no chance for queer people and that you have to make your own corner because a lot of countries hate them
[2025-06-15T20:37:55Z] <sewn> ...yes?
[2025-06-15T20:37:55Z] <riteo> also, the web used to suck even more actualy
[2025-06-15T20:38:02Z] <riteo> bruh :skull:
[2025-06-15T20:38:37Z] <riteo> the web was full of fcking java applets for god's sake and most websites were broken beyond recognition exactly because a single browser treated the markup as it wanted
[2025-06-15T20:38:58Z] <sewn> ooh
[2025-06-15T20:39:00Z] <nathhhh> i never really experienced java applets but i can imagine that they sucked ass
[2025-06-15T20:39:07Z] <nathhhh> actually not just sucked ass sucked ROYAL ass
[2025-06-15T20:39:15Z] <riteo> I think I did so only briefly? I'm quite young too
[2025-06-15T20:39:37Z] <riteo> but I read the stories
[2025-06-15T20:39:40Z] <sewn> sounds terrible
[2025-06-15T20:39:55Z] <riteo> again, most people don't care and they use the same framework anyways
[2025-06-15T20:40:12Z] <riteo> 99% of the web not only is redeemable, it's already partially so
[2025-06-15T20:40:16Z] <riteo> like, reader mode
[2025-06-15T20:40:24Z] <riteo> it works only in well-formed websites with semantic tags
[2025-06-15T20:40:33Z] <riteo> like article and main
[2025-06-15T20:40:42Z] <riteo> yet 99% of websites, even the crappiest ones do that
[2025-06-15T20:40:46Z] <riteo> that's not something to be taken for granted
[2025-06-15T20:41:19Z] <riteo> or even stuff like native dark mode
[2025-06-15T20:41:28Z] <riteo> we're slowly getting to the point where js is less and less necessary
[2025-06-15T20:41:30Z] <riteo> don't lose hope sewn
[2025-06-15T20:41:38Z] <riteo> fight for your people, for your ideals
[2025-06-15T20:41:45Z] <sewn> um
[2025-06-15T20:41:56Z] <riteo> why did mid have to go just now :sob:
[2025-06-15T20:42:02Z] <sewn> okay sorry I think I got the wrong message accross
[2025-06-15T20:42:10Z] <sewn> do you think I hate simple websites or something
[2025-06-15T20:42:13Z] <riteo> no
[2025-06-15T20:42:19Z] <sewn> so likw
[2025-06-15T20:42:21Z] <sewn> huh
[2025-06-15T20:42:22Z] <riteo> I think that you think that there's no way to get to a better point
[2025-06-15T20:42:28Z] <sewn> oh yes that's true
[2025-06-15T20:42:30Z] <riteo> no chance to see a saner web
[2025-06-15T20:42:39Z] <riteo> and I'm saying that that's wrong and we even have proof
[2025-06-15T20:42:40Z] <sewn> mhm
[2025-06-15T20:42:42Z] <sewn> um
[2025-06-15T20:42:47Z] <sewn> ehh
[2025-06-15T20:42:53Z] <riteo> most people don't care what's going behind the scenes lol
[2025-06-15T20:43:05Z] <riteo> they just want to do the chit chatty or read a recipe
[2025-06-15T20:43:13Z] <riteo> we can go behind the curtain though and fight
[2025-06-15T20:43:25Z] <riteo> I mean some people straight up made alternatives like gemini
[2025-06-15T20:43:36Z] <riteo> or cared for older competitors to http/html
[2025-06-15T20:43:40Z] <riteo> (gopher)
[2025-06-15T20:44:31Z] <riteo> we'll have to cut our own corner but who cares? Let's nourish whatever we have and make that corner into a room, then a building, then a town
[2025-06-15T20:44:41Z] <riteo> bye nathhhh
[2025-06-15T20:44:58Z] <sewn> uh oh mids gonna be mad
[2025-06-15T20:45:01Z] <riteo> why
[2025-06-15T20:45:06Z] <riteo> did we scare them
[2025-06-15T20:45:11Z] <sewn> I did 
[2025-06-15T20:45:15Z] <riteo> I don't think so nah
[2025-06-15T20:45:18Z] <sewn> also
[2025-06-15T20:45:23Z] <riteo> they seemed to read the whole thing honestly
[2025-06-15T20:45:26Z] <sewn> riteo I want a saner web too
[2025-06-15T20:45:34Z] <riteo> I mean the've been online for three hours
[2025-06-15T20:45:42Z] <riteo> sewn: then fight for it
[2025-06-15T20:45:48Z] <sewn> I'm just saying this because the websites that you actually need to do shit in life won't change
[2025-06-15T20:45:58Z] <sewn> hospitals, government services, banks, etc etc
[2025-06-15T20:46:02Z] <kris_> fuck the sun
[2025-06-15T20:46:06Z] <riteo> I don't see how that's an issue
[2025-06-15T20:46:19Z] <riteo> most goverment websites suck and always sucked
[2025-06-15T20:46:19Z] <sewn> wait what the hell are we arguing about then
[2025-06-15T20:46:26Z] <riteo> bruh
[2025-06-15T20:46:30Z] <sewn> bwehhh
[2025-06-15T20:46:32Z] <riteo> you might be overgeneralizing then dunno
[2025-06-15T20:46:36Z] <sewn> yaa
[2025-06-15T20:46:57Z] <riteo> to put the point across: making the web saner is perfectly doable IMO and does _not_ mean making 100% of the web perfect
[2025-06-15T20:47:05Z] <riteo> especially crappy stuff like goverment websites
[2025-06-15T20:47:24Z] <riteo> I literally have a VM dedicated to my eID card with sockets for a special NCF android app and crap like that
[2025-06-15T20:47:33Z] <riteo> that's how I treat government crap
[2025-06-15T20:48:50Z] <riteo> gotta nurture whatever we have or we'll loose even that
[2025-06-15T20:48:59Z] <riteo> lose
[2025-06-15T20:49:03Z] <riteo> that said
[2025-06-15T20:49:05Z] <riteo> time for dinner!
[2025-06-15T20:49:14Z] <riteo> bing bing
[2025-06-15T20:49:18Z] <kris_> i don't like driving
[2025-06-15T20:49:22Z] <kris_> vroom
[2025-06-15T20:51:17Z] <sewn> I love driving
[2025-06-15T20:51:21Z] <sewn> vroooooom
[2025-06-15T20:52:24Z] <kris_> there are too many other people on the road here
[2025-06-15T20:56:30Z] <sewn> same
[2025-06-15T20:56:37Z] <sewn> I nearly crash into someone every day :3
[2025-06-15T21:00:30Z] <kris_> you do seem like someone who would be a danger on the road
[2025-06-15T21:00:47Z] <sewn> statistically speaking I'm not
[2025-06-15T21:03:11Z] <kris_> fair enough
[2025-06-15T21:03:21Z] <kris_> statistically speaking i am potentially a danger on the road but it has not been 100% proven
[2025-06-15T21:03:43Z] <sewn> for me its been proven
[2025-06-15T21:12:20Z] <kris_> sewn you're a proven danger on the road??
[2025-06-15T21:12:25Z] <kris_> What did you hit
[2025-06-15T22:57:17Z] <midfavila> okay kids i'm back 
[2025-06-15T22:57:37Z] <midfavila> i avoided death on the bike today, fortunately