[2026-03-31T20:09:48Z] <Guest23> Unemployment is prevalent across all fields, it is nothing specific to SWE. Unemployment is the result of the current recession-but-not-recession economy. AI barely has anything to do with it, it can't replace junior SWE anyway, as much as managers like to claim so. They have yet to make an ounce of profit. They keep selling dreams of AGI so the line keeps going up. It is unsustainable.
[2026-03-31T20:10:17Z] <midfavila> that's capitalism for you
[2026-03-31T20:10:25Z] <midfavila> AI is just the cover for it ofc
[2026-03-31T20:10:43Z] <midfavila> i don't know, the world has been in a recession since 2008
[2026-03-31T20:10:46Z] <midfavila> it never recovered
[2026-03-31T20:10:54Z] <midfavila> then covid happened and we never recovered from that
[2026-03-31T20:10:59Z] <midfavila> housing went crazy
[2026-03-31T20:11:14Z] <Guest23> Yeah, I just want to clarify that CS is no exception.
[2026-03-31T20:11:18Z] <midfavila> now we're looking at a general cost of living crisis in many nations as a result of downstream 
[2026-03-31T20:11:23Z] <midfavila> being downstream*
[2026-03-31T20:12:08Z] <midfavila> and now this latest shit with burger nation liberating western asia again and iran bullying them in response causing a fuel shortage and related price spikes, not to mention shortages of agrochemicals necessary for industrial agriculture...
[2026-03-31T20:12:28Z] <midfavila> things are going to get so much worse lmao
[2026-03-31T20:12:47Z] <midfavila> we'll all be back in the fields soon enough
[2026-03-31T20:13:19Z] <Guest23> People like you are needed in this industry, to create some momentum. SW engineers have been fed too well to cause any kind of improvement. Not to mention reliance on migrants to keep it quiet and steady.
[2026-03-31T20:13:35Z] <shrub> midfavila: spreading straight doom and gloom in the kisslinux irc channel
[2026-03-31T20:13:46Z] <midfavila> it all goes back to the 70s and the technolibertarianism of the era 
[2026-03-31T20:14:06Z] <midfavila> shrub: capitalism is why i can't contribute to my stupid little software projects, i'm allowed to be mad >:C
[2026-03-31T20:14:27Z] <midfavila> besides this is relevant 
[2026-03-31T20:14:56Z] <midfavila> ai and the economics of the tech industry broadly are affecting free software projects that kiss relies on, and the wars in europe and asia have directly impacted core members of the community
[2026-03-31T20:15:20Z] <midfavila> also also the channel is dead anyway lmao
[2026-03-31T20:15:32Z] <kris_> is not
[2026-03-31T20:15:50Z] <midfavila> is too
[2026-03-31T20:15:56Z] * kris_ finger wags
[2026-03-31T20:16:06Z] <midfavila> go back to playing ur bingbongs >:C
[2026-03-31T20:16:13Z] <kris_> i see you lot here on a regular basis even if the discussion is never related to kiss
[2026-03-31T20:16:16Z] <kris_> what is a bingbong
[2026-03-31T20:16:21Z] <midfavila> vidya gaems
[2026-03-31T20:16:28Z] <midfavila> counters and strikes
[2026-03-31T20:16:35Z] <kris_> oh right
[2026-03-31T20:16:41Z] <kris_> i forgot about counterstrike for the past like 2 weeks somehow
[2026-03-31T20:16:45Z] <kris_> like legit didnt cross my mind at all
[2026-03-31T20:16:51Z] <midfavila> now you have to go play it again 
[2026-03-31T20:16:55Z] <kris_> no i really dont
[2026-03-31T20:17:00Z] <kris_> once i get home, resident evil 2
[2026-03-31T20:17:00Z] <midfavila> and thus the channel will die once more
[2026-03-31T20:17:01Z] <kris_> remake
[2026-03-31T20:17:03Z] <midfavila> such is the cycle of things
[2026-03-31T20:17:09Z] <kris_> i'm almost always here
[2026-03-31T20:17:10Z] <midfavila> life, death, rebirth
[2026-03-31T20:17:15Z] <kris_> i just don't always type anything
[2026-03-31T20:17:18Z] <midfavila> irc in its purest form
[2026-03-31T20:17:36Z] <kris_> i am humgry
[2026-03-31T20:17:51Z] <kris_> might walk to the grocery and get a sandwich
[2026-03-31T20:18:05Z] <midfavila> i watched an interesting video about the early entanglement of the technology industry with the american military industrial complex actually
[2026-03-31T20:18:14Z] <kris_> sometimes i get lucky and they have 12 inch subs for like $3 because they're on their "sell by" date
[2026-03-31T20:18:22Z] <kris_> meaning they're completely fucking fine but people wont buy them because they're "expired"
[2026-03-31T20:18:28Z] <kris_> it kicks ass bc i get a 12 inch sub for cheap af
[2026-03-31T20:18:40Z] <midfavila> yeah but it's probably full of worms because >FDA
[2026-03-31T20:18:49Z] <midfavila> so you win some and you lose some
[2026-03-31T20:19:08Z] <kris_> i am not driven by worms mid i am driven by fungus
[2026-03-31T20:19:17Z] <kris_> The Last Of Us^tm
[2026-03-31T20:19:45Z] <midfavila> Guest23: actually on the topic of job prospects and the tech industry a friend in another channel just mentioned that his friend who's worked for oracle for like 20+ years just got laid off
[2026-03-31T20:19:46Z] <Guest23> Hasn't technological development been very intertwined with military historically?
[2026-03-31T20:19:53Z] <midfavila> yes
[2026-03-31T20:20:07Z] <midfavila> but that's arguably because the military is generally state-directed
[2026-03-31T20:20:18Z] <kris_> midfavila: by the time i get back from the grocery store your ass have better had listened to Space Time by Gojira
[2026-03-31T20:20:32Z] <midfavila> the free market isn't geared to create *good* products, but *profitable* products, so there's no real incentive to take risks for little reward
[2026-03-31T20:20:50Z] <midfavila> the internet started off as a government project in basically every local network that came to comprise the internet afaikk
[2026-03-31T20:21:09Z] <midfavila> kris_: or else you're going to pull a dark helmet on me
[2026-03-31T20:21:11Z] <midfavila> small child
[2026-03-31T20:21:14Z] <midfavila> smdh
[2026-03-31T20:21:19Z] <kris_> erm it's darth helmet
[2026-03-31T20:21:26Z] <midfavila> sorry my bad
[2026-03-31T20:21:35Z] <kris_> i love that movie, you appear to have clocked me
[2026-03-31T20:21:53Z] <midfavila> but yeah like look at modern tech. it's all vibes and bullshit
[2026-03-31T20:21:57Z] <Guest23> Isn't tls a state department product as well, hence reluctance some people have to use it
[2026-03-31T20:22:07Z] <midfavila> not familiar with that specifically
[2026-03-31T20:22:19Z] <midfavila> i'm mostly interested in ancient history tbh
[2026-03-31T20:22:23Z] <midfavila> 1950s through 1970s
[2026-03-31T20:22:27Z] <midfavila> everything afterward is boring
[2026-03-31T20:22:39Z] <kris_> >ancient
[2026-03-31T20:22:40Z] <midfavila> everyone standardised on x86 IBM PCs 
[2026-03-31T20:22:41Z] <kris_> >like 20 minutes ago
[2026-03-31T20:22:59Z] <midfavila> the 1950s is prehistoric in the tech world kris shut up >:c
[2026-03-31T20:23:03Z] <midfavila> you know what i meant
[2026-03-31T20:23:05Z] <kris_> alright serious mode, it's dumping rain and i am extremely annoyed by this
[2026-03-31T20:23:13Z] <kris_> it's way too hot outside and the air feels like a wet weighted blanket
[2026-03-31T20:23:21Z] <midfavila> how many people today care about the specific design and implementation of like
[2026-03-31T20:23:21Z] <kris_> i miss the like -40f weather we had 2 months ago 
[2026-03-31T20:23:24Z] <midfavila> colossus
[2026-03-31T20:23:30Z] <midfavila> or the lilith system
[2026-03-31T20:23:40Z] <midfavila> or soviet cybernetic economics
[2026-03-31T20:23:57Z] <kris_> i don't think we have a society that is conducive to caring about technology in general
[2026-03-31T20:24:00Z] <midfavila> totally abandoned technologies that represented some of the pinnacles of engineering of the era
[2026-03-31T20:24:07Z] <kris_> most people have zero problems to solve because their iphone just werks so they don't bother
[2026-03-31T20:24:08Z] <midfavila> of course we don't because we live under capitalism
[2026-03-31T20:24:19Z] <Guest23> > who's worked for oracle for like 20+ years just got laid off
[2026-03-31T20:24:19Z] <Guest23> everything is 
[2026-03-31T20:24:19Z] <Guest23> totally
[2026-03-31T20:24:19Z] <Guest23>  normal
[2026-03-31T20:24:20Z] <midfavila> operating systems haven't meaningfully advanced in most of society since the 1980s
[2026-03-31T20:24:34Z] <midfavila> and that's being generous
[2026-03-31T20:24:46Z] <midfavila> if i wanted to be even more of a prick i could say the mid 70s
[2026-03-31T20:25:11Z] <kris_> i need to give slackware a look on the note of things that haven't changed much since pre2k
[2026-03-31T20:25:14Z] <midfavila> considering most people interact with a knockoff of CP/M on their computers 
[2026-03-31T20:25:24Z] <Guest23> doesn't this extend back to the debate between linus and tanenbaum 
[2026-03-31T20:25:25Z] <midfavila> i hate billy g so much it's unreal
[2026-03-31T20:25:32Z] <kris_> the BDFL has been a little bit funny with the recent age verification drama
[2026-03-31T20:25:44Z] <kris_> "little bit funny" meaning asking if any lawyers want a test case
[2026-03-31T20:25:48Z] <midfavila> Guest23: no this is deep lore about the origin of dos and shit 
[2026-03-31T20:26:04Z] <midfavila> what happened to DR and kildall is literally criminal 
[2026-03-31T20:26:30Z] <midfavila> not like, figuratively, it was literally tested in court iirc
[2026-03-31T20:26:35Z] <midfavila> multiple times
[2026-03-31T20:26:42Z] <kris_> i guess i'm not going to the grocery store, too much rain
[2026-03-31T20:26:51Z] <midfavila> kris you're not made of sugar
[2026-03-31T20:26:54Z] <midfavila> >:c
[2026-03-31T20:26:58Z] <midfavila> get an umbrella
[2026-03-31T20:27:02Z] <kris_> do not have
[2026-03-31T20:27:16Z] <midfavila> also i haven't been following slackware's news lately, maybe i should
[2026-03-31T20:27:27Z] <midfavila> honestly i treat slack the way most do debian
[2026-03-31T20:27:33Z] <midfavila> i install it and forget about it
[2026-03-31T20:27:38Z] <kris_> tldr pat basically said eat ass with the age verification thing and asked if any lawyers want to use slackware as a test case for whether or not this can even be enforced legally
[2026-03-31T20:28:12Z] <kris_> midfavila: i would be completely unable to forget about it with the stable releases, even debian gets *way* too old for me
[2026-03-31T20:28:19Z] <kris_> i'm not sure how rolling -current is
[2026-03-31T20:28:33Z] <midfavila> wao (basedbasedbasedbasedbased)
[2026-03-31T20:28:44Z] <midfavila> pat is consistently a good opinion haver
[2026-03-31T20:28:52Z] <midfavila> fuck california
[2026-03-31T20:29:06Z] <kris_> unfortunately it's also colorado, new york, illinois
[2026-03-31T20:29:09Z] <midfavila> dipshit assholes think they're so great because they vote for the blue fascists instead of the red ones 
[2026-03-31T20:29:09Z] <kris_> surprisingly, louisiana
[2026-03-31T20:29:15Z] <midfavila> nah not surprising at all
[2026-03-31T20:29:21Z] <Guest23> chances are it's coming, though
[2026-03-31T20:29:25Z] <kris_> new yorks requires actual *verification*
[2026-03-31T20:29:31Z] <kris_> the other ones just force the user to input an age atm
[2026-03-31T20:29:33Z] <Guest23> we have a trend towards increased surveillance
[2026-03-31T20:29:47Z] <midfavila> i saw apple requires credit card submission now 
[2026-03-31T20:29:50Z] <midfavila> at least in britain
[2026-03-31T20:29:51Z] <kris_> and idk anything about pat but he seems cool
[2026-03-31T20:30:33Z] <kris_> the only completed ready to use distros i take seriously that aren't currently planning on complying are void and slackware
[2026-03-31T20:31:00Z] <kris_> and void might or might not- the only thing they said is that they have no plans at the moment (void doesnt plan literally anything out, so it's basically a "maybe we will maybe we wont")
[2026-03-31T20:31:22Z] <kris_> the rest of the not complying list are the chud systems like artix
[2026-03-31T20:31:39Z] <kris_> devuan won't be complying either
[2026-03-31T20:32:31Z] <midfavila> honestly this is kind of why i've decided to just maintain my own system 
[2026-03-31T20:32:42Z] <midfavila> and lern2cood
[2026-03-31T20:32:57Z] <kris_> i'm beyond capable of shitting out code i just also don't care enough until something forces me to
[2026-03-31T20:33:01Z] <midfavila> i care about the single unix spec and everything else can fuck off 
[2026-03-31T20:33:21Z] <kris_> if something happens to void i'm inclined to just ditch linux and install a BSD
[2026-03-31T20:33:28Z] <midfavila> unfortunately i'm currently too employed to focus on programming
[2026-03-31T20:33:35Z] <midfavila> for a while i was studying comp sci for like 8 hours a day 
[2026-03-31T20:33:38Z] <midfavila> during the lockdowns
[2026-03-31T20:34:00Z] <midfavila> i really enjoyed what i read of aho's foundations of computer science
[2026-03-31T20:34:05Z] <midfavila> also it has a cool cover
[2026-03-31T20:34:18Z] <midfavila> TCP/IP illustated is also really good but the third book's second edition sucks
[2026-03-31T20:34:26Z] <midfavila> the first one is better even if it only covers v4
[2026-03-31T20:34:37Z] <midfavila> OH
[2026-03-31T20:34:43Z] <midfavila> another book i really enjoyed was uh
[2026-03-31T20:34:53Z] <midfavila> wirth's book on algorithms and data structures
[2026-03-31T20:35:01Z] <kris_> i don't expect void to do anything rash but i'm kinda getting itchy since ive been using this for over 4 years now and am not really having issues so i'm just getting bored
[2026-03-31T20:35:09Z] <kris_> gentoo is awful so maybe i should use it
[2026-03-31T20:35:14Z] <midfavila> i can't remember the name but it's from the 70s and all of the examples are in pascal or algol or something
[2026-03-31T20:35:26Z] <kris_> you seem like an erlang type to me
[2026-03-31T20:35:31Z] <midfavila> i like scheme
[2026-03-31T20:35:33Z] <midfavila> and forth
[2026-03-31T20:35:42Z] <midfavila> i don't see anything else as necessary
[2026-03-31T20:35:51Z] <kris_> i like go
[2026-03-31T20:35:51Z] <sad_plan> > Gojira. nice kris_. gojira has some decent tracks imo, and mid should for sure check them out
[2026-03-31T20:35:53Z] <midfavila> but i haven't done much experimentation, so..?
[2026-03-31T20:36:24Z] <kris_> erlang might unironically give me a few of the things i like about go without googles involvement
[2026-03-31T20:36:28Z] <kris_> so i'm going to look into it shortly
[2026-03-31T20:36:34Z] <kris_> mostly syntax sugar
[2026-03-31T20:36:46Z] <kris_> sad_plan: yeah i love gojira, probably my favorite metal band at the moment
[2026-03-31T20:37:21Z] <sad_plan> also, im not even mad at the age verification bs, its not affecting me in any way. and good luck trying to force this on my custom distro lol
[2026-03-31T20:37:29Z] <sad_plan> or grapheneOS for that matter
[2026-03-31T20:37:34Z] <kris_> it will affect you.
[2026-03-31T20:37:44Z] <kris_> the entire internet is going to default to assuming you're a child if this applies to where you live
[2026-03-31T20:37:56Z] <sad_plan> yeah, Ive even seen them live. theyre quite good actually. its been some time since ive actually listened to them though
[2026-03-31T20:38:04Z] <sad_plan> it doesnt, because this law isnt applicable in EU
[2026-03-31T20:38:24Z] <kris_> i'll just vpn out to switzerland once things get proper bad
[2026-03-31T20:38:30Z] <kris_> or wherever else
[2026-03-31T20:38:42Z] <kris_> i bought 3 years of airvpn access last night, might have been a terrible decision but fuck it, need it anyway
[2026-03-31T20:38:53Z] <midfavila> kris_: the internet is not the web
[2026-03-31T20:38:55Z] <sad_plan> however, sometimes im annoyd by videos on youtube being age restricted. the solution is pretty simple though. I just dont watch the video
[2026-03-31T20:39:05Z] <kris_> yeah that pisses me off so much
[2026-03-31T20:39:09Z] <midfavila> sad_plan: invidious works on things to get around that
[2026-03-31T20:39:18Z] <kris_> youtube decided to age check me after i watched regular show clips for like 3 hours
[2026-03-31T20:39:31Z] <sad_plan> midfavila: doesnt cervument age restricted content
[2026-03-31T20:39:31Z] <kris_> ...a cartoon that was relevant when i, as a 24 year old, was like 10
[2026-03-31T20:39:34Z] <midfavila> i think that's why youtube keeps changing shit slightly but constantly now
[2026-03-31T20:39:39Z] <midfavila> sad_plan: it used to
[2026-03-31T20:39:45Z] <midfavila> again they keep changing shit
[2026-03-31T20:40:02Z] <sad_plan> that mustve been quite some time ago, but no matter.
[2026-03-31T20:40:04Z] <kris_> idk what to do about that
[2026-03-31T20:40:11Z] <kris_> i could just let them do the face scan since i intend on putting my face on youtube anyway
[2026-03-31T20:40:14Z] <midfavila> youtube tried to go after invidious for a ToS violation and demanded they take everything down but invidous was like "we never agreed to your ToS shit fuck off"
[2026-03-31T20:40:16Z] <kris_> so like my face is part of the botnet regardless
[2026-03-31T20:40:19Z] <kris_> but it still feels dirty to comply
[2026-03-31T20:40:22Z] <sad_plan> also, yah, youtube keep changing and thus breaking invidious. which is annoying af
[2026-03-31T20:40:28Z] <midfavila> and yt has been actively messing with them since then
[2026-03-31T20:40:51Z] <kris_> i have a not so good idea
[2026-03-31T20:40:57Z] <sad_plan> midfavila: yeah lol. I love when big tech tries to pull the ToS card, but it doesnt work. now they mad
[2026-03-31T20:41:24Z] <midfavila> i just miss being able to use my invidious shell script client...
[2026-03-31T20:41:28Z] <midfavila> it was so comfy
[2026-03-31T20:41:53Z] <sad_plan> I bet. I also used to download from invidious with yt-dlp, but it doesnt work anymore
[2026-03-31T20:43:50Z] <sad_plan> atleast I havent been able to get it to work. havent really made any effort in figuring out why though
[2026-03-31T20:44:27Z] <kris_> https://github.com/thebabush/llvm-jutsu
[2026-03-31T20:46:57Z] <dery> sad_plan: nadeko consistently gives "i'm a teapot" so I guess it's the anti-bot thing
[2026-03-31T20:47:20Z] <dery> since youtube got harder to scrape people started scraping the already struggling frontends
[2026-03-31T20:47:29Z] <sad_plan> dery: yeah I was just going to say it justs gives you a 418, probably because of some server config..
[2026-03-31T20:47:35Z] <sad_plan> yeah I suppose thats correct
[2026-03-31T20:48:00Z] <midfavila> honestly i hope people start hosting their own shit again
[2026-03-31T20:48:09Z] <midfavila> i'm so tired of being forced into the web
[2026-03-31T20:48:48Z] <midfavila> i don't want to install an OS on top of my OS so that you can make me run a bunch of software i don't want all to run a video player inside the os on top of my os in order to play a video at 2fps that i could play locally just fine
[2026-03-31T20:49:09Z] <kris_> im progressively hosting more stuff
[2026-03-31T20:49:14Z] <sad_plan> kris_: whats this magic lol
[2026-03-31T20:49:17Z] <kris_> atm my focus is on "games that dont suck"
[2026-03-31T20:49:34Z] <kris_> iw4x, wolfenstein enemy territory, older versions of minecraft
[2026-03-31T20:49:36Z] <sad_plan> midfavila: I wanna host stuff too, but I dont have a vps or hardware at home to do so
[2026-03-31T20:49:39Z] <kris_> maybe a few other things
[2026-03-31T20:50:19Z] <kris_> mid is gonna kill me but atm im hosting just a few things locally in my house- jellyfin, soju, and an LLM
[2026-03-31T20:50:39Z] <kris_> the LLM is used as an offline search engine replacement, not to code
[2026-03-31T20:51:15Z] <midfavila> have you considered just using a search engine
[2026-03-31T20:51:31Z] <kris_> yes, i attempt it daily and its fucking agonizing
[2026-03-31T20:51:38Z] <midfavila> a local one
[2026-03-31T20:51:46Z] <kris_> im using my friends searxng mostly atm because i had to stop hosting mine
[2026-03-31T20:51:46Z] <midfavila> but yes search engines are shit now
[2026-03-31T20:51:54Z] <midfavila> i like wiby.me though
[2026-03-31T20:51:59Z] <midfavila> it's curated by hand
[2026-03-31T20:52:01Z] <kris_> hers is more private than mine was ever going to be anyway
[2026-03-31T20:52:22Z] <kris_> given mine previously ran off of a hetzner vps
[2026-03-31T20:52:37Z] <kris_> i was just churning hetzner IPs every time google or someone else blacklisted me
[2026-03-31T20:53:08Z] <sad_plan> wiby.me is pretty cool actually. I keep forgetting about it
[2026-03-31T20:53:28Z] <kris_> searxng seems about as good as it gets these days
[2026-03-31T20:53:29Z] <midfavila> aso
[2026-03-31T20:53:30Z] <midfavila> also
[2026-03-31T20:53:35Z] <midfavila> crazy idea
[2026-03-31T20:53:38Z] <midfavila> you could go to the library
[2026-03-31T20:53:41Z] <kris_> my local LLMs name is beavis and hes an idiot
[2026-03-31T20:53:56Z] <kris_> but hes good at letting me know what exists as of like last year
[2026-03-31T20:54:21Z] <midfavila> http://infolab.stanford.edu/~ullman/focs.html
[2026-03-31T20:54:28Z] <midfavila> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^amazing book for intro cs
[2026-03-31T20:55:10Z] <sad_plan> i kinda wish uzbl was maintained. I wanna try it, but its been dead for 10 years now :c
[2026-03-31T20:55:11Z] <midfavila> i'm so fucking upset that i had to throw out my textbooks when i moved 
[2026-03-31T20:55:15Z] <midfavila> uzbl is cool
[2026-03-31T20:55:19Z] <midfavila> actually
[2026-03-31T20:55:20Z] <midfavila> sad_plan: 
[2026-03-31T20:55:46Z] <midfavila> if i can, at some point, i'd like to try and strip links down and then build some uzbl-style tools around it
[2026-03-31T20:55:49Z] <midfavila> would that interest you
[2026-03-31T20:55:49Z] <midfavila> ?
[2026-03-31T20:55:54Z] <midfavila> https://archive.org/details/algorithmsdatast0000wirt_u9b4
[2026-03-31T20:55:58Z] <midfavila> ^also an excellent bookk
[2026-03-31T20:56:01Z] <midfavila> book even 
[2026-03-31T20:56:11Z] <midfavila> fucking reform keyboard aaa i need to fix mine
[2026-03-31T20:56:33Z] <midfavila> god i had like 2000 dollars worth of textbooks accumulated over ten years and so many were out of print...
[2026-03-31T20:56:40Z] <midfavila> actually painful to think about
[2026-03-31T20:57:00Z] <sad_plan> midfavila: hm, I suppose so? ive started using *some* netsurf, which is waaay faster than luakit and firefox.
[2026-03-31T20:57:22Z] <midfavila> it also wouldn't be hard to use other browsers as the core
[2026-03-31T20:57:26Z] <midfavila> something like surf for example
[2026-03-31T20:57:51Z] <sad_plan> ive been meaning to switch to using a swc compositor instead. which should give me a less complex software stack
[2026-03-31T20:58:29Z] <midfavila> you can pry x from my cold dead hands
[2026-03-31T20:58:40Z] <midfavila> i will abandon guis or write my own graphics subsystem before i use wayland
[2026-03-31T20:58:51Z] <sad_plan> probably yeah. surf is really cool. but I cant get it to work under wayland. even with the patch. I also enabled wayland for webkit, but it for some reason broke my browser for both x and wayland after I finally got to build webkit
[2026-03-31T20:59:11Z] <midfavila> god i still wish i could use mgr...
[2026-03-31T20:59:28Z] <midfavila> it really is all i need
[2026-03-31T20:59:35Z] <midfavila> or
[2026-03-31T20:59:37Z] <midfavila> if likke
[2026-03-31T20:59:38Z] <midfavila> like
[2026-03-31T20:59:43Z] <midfavila> you could, idk
[2026-03-31T20:59:44Z] <sad_plan> wouldnt technically swc stuff work for you in this regard mid? I mean, swc/wld is terribly simple in comparisson to lot of other stuff. or is it more of a fundamental thing here? lol
[2026-03-31T21:00:05Z] <midfavila> i would need to abandon every single piece of graphical software i use 
[2026-03-31T21:00:27Z] <sad_plan> yeah I suppose thats a relly big caveat for you
[2026-03-31T21:00:40Z] <midfavila> also it would require i use a modern toolki
[2026-03-31T21:00:44Z] <midfavila> toolkit
[2026-03-31T21:00:48Z] <sad_plan> I dont use much besides mpv and a browser, or mupdf sometimes. rest is usually in the terminal
[2026-03-31T21:00:51Z] <midfavila> instead of Athena
[2026-03-31T21:00:56Z] <sad_plan> right
[2026-03-31T21:01:00Z] <midfavila> and i'm just not interested in that
[2026-03-31T21:01:17Z] <midfavila> because that would require i either learn glib or c++ for gtk and qt respectively and like
[2026-03-31T21:01:20Z] <midfavila> no
[2026-03-31T21:01:23Z] <midfavila> c is fine
[2026-03-31T21:01:25Z] <midfavila> xt is fine
[2026-03-31T21:02:05Z] <midfavila> also i would need llvm and mesa and shit wouldn't i?
[2026-03-31T21:02:15Z] <midfavila> atm my distro doesn't need any of that
[2026-03-31T21:02:22Z] <sad_plan> swc just uses libdrm, so no
[2026-03-31T21:02:32Z] <sad_plan> you dont need any of that. 
[2026-03-31T21:02:32Z] <midfavila> that's good at least
[2026-03-31T21:03:24Z] <midfavila> idk xfbdev works for me
[2026-03-31T21:04:01Z] <sad_plan> yeah. could probably compare it to tinyx in this regard, but seeing as it uses libdrm, instead of framebuffer, it does have somewhat better performance. I been able to launch ps1 games atleast, so performance wise, its ok
[2026-03-31T21:04:06Z] <midfavila> but again a modern mgr-style setup would be nice 
[2026-03-31T21:04:11Z] <midfavila> i would use that over x11
[2026-03-31T21:05:10Z] <midfavila> http://www.hack.org/~mc/mgr/
[2026-03-31T21:05:12Z] <midfavila> *behold*
[2026-03-31T21:05:14Z] <midfavila> peakk
[2026-03-31T21:05:43Z] <sad_plan> nice
[2026-03-31T21:06:12Z] <midfavila> *and* it's network transparent still
[2026-03-31T21:06:27Z] <midfavila> from what i understand mgr is basically just an extremely sophisticated terminal emulator
[2026-03-31T21:06:34Z] <midfavila> sort of like blit
[2026-03-31T21:07:15Z] <kris_> grocery store adventure complete and i am only moderately soaked
[2026-03-31T21:09:59Z] <sad_plan> kris_: do you not have a jacket?
[2026-03-31T21:14:35Z] <sad_plan> lol, I also recently realised that if I use my mousebutton, I can paste whatever is marked. even in browsers
[2026-03-31T21:15:47Z] <sad_plan> I mostly just realized this because mcf's st fork for wld doesnt have some proper keybindings for copy/paste, so I figured id try the plumbing thingy, but mixed the keybindings up, so instead of mouse 3, I pressed mouse 2.
[2026-03-31T21:15:53Z] <sad_plan> I was kinda in awe of this
[2026-03-31T21:16:32Z] <midfavila> sad_plan is that not a thing in most wayland setups..?
[2026-03-31T21:19:52Z] <sad_plan> I dunno. it works on both ends for me. both under swc, and x
[2026-03-31T21:20:00Z] <midfavila> yeah i was going to say
[2026-03-31T21:20:03Z] <midfavila> X has had that for ages
[2026-03-31T21:20:11Z] <midfavila> X has iirc three text buffers
[2026-03-31T21:20:18Z] <midfavila> CLIPBOARD, PRIMARY, and SECONDARY
[2026-03-31T21:20:26Z] <midfavila> although iirc SECONDARY is a holdover from X10
[2026-03-31T21:20:38Z] <midfavila> when you highlight text it's copied into PRIMARY
[2026-03-31T21:21:08Z] <midfavila> when the application specifically demands it, such as using your application's equivalent to C-v, it's stored in CLIPBOARD
[2026-03-31T21:21:10Z] <sad_plan> yeah, Im aware, but I never really figured out what they were. and Ive been hella annoyd with this on surf for example, where I made surf copy something, but it wasnt copied to clipboard
[2026-03-31T21:21:23Z] <kris_> typical copy/paste behavior on linux is so beyond fucking annoying
[2026-03-31T21:21:31Z] <midfavila> it's not a linux thing
[2026-03-31T21:21:37Z] <kris_> ok then x11/wayland
[2026-03-31T21:21:38Z] <midfavila> it's your DE/windowing subsystem
[2026-03-31T21:21:47Z] <kris_> fundamentally it's braindead
[2026-03-31T21:21:52Z] <kris_> the middle mouse click thing i trigger so often
[2026-03-31T21:21:55Z] <kris_> shouldnt even be there
[2026-03-31T21:22:04Z] <midfavila> just get a real pointing device nerd
[2026-03-31T21:22:17Z] <midfavila> if your mouse has less than three discrete buttons it's not even a real computer >:C
[2026-03-31T21:22:19Z] <sad_plan> i never got why we cant just have one, but now maybe I do. its much faster doing it this way lol
[2026-03-31T21:22:20Z] <midfavila> fact
[2026-03-31T21:22:26Z] <midfavila> yeah
[2026-03-31T21:22:32Z] <kris_> i cannot wait to go home
[2026-03-31T21:22:40Z] <midfavila> i mean the whole idea of plan 9 minimising keyboard use is based around that lol
[2026-03-31T21:22:45Z] <kris_> i figure its gonna be like 2 hours of sitting here doing nothing with a fucking dog
[2026-03-31T21:23:02Z] <midfavila> mouse chording is much more efficient than constantly going back to hammer out commands on the keyboard
[2026-03-31T21:23:57Z] <sad_plan> yeah the issue is mostly because you have to move your hand to/from mouse. if you can skip that for more tasks, I suppose you can be faster
[2026-03-31T21:24:12Z] <sad_plan> I like using my keyboard for most tasks, but some tasks is faster with mouse
[2026-03-31T21:24:41Z] <kris_> i dont think i like using my mouse at all unless im playing a game
[2026-03-31T21:25:45Z] <sad_plan> I use my mouse a lot, even with me having tridactyl on firefox, which gives me vim keys in firefox. I even do this many times in luakit
[2026-03-31T21:25:49Z] <sad_plan> I have no idea why
[2026-03-31T21:26:49Z] <midfavila> https://sau.homeip.net/papers/arch.pdf
[2026-03-31T21:26:56Z] <midfavila> mgr design doc
[2026-03-31T21:27:02Z] <midfavila> so neat..
[2026-03-31T21:27:43Z] <sad_plan> would you look at that. uzbl even exist in aur. maybe I can get that working under conty
[2026-03-31T21:28:14Z] <midfavila> i mean the main thing that was the issue was the transition to a newer webkit
[2026-03-31T21:28:21Z] <midfavila> at this point python2 code would need to be migrated as well
[2026-03-31T21:28:30Z] <midfavila> but tbh we could probably write alternatives in shell 
[2026-03-31T21:28:34Z] <sad_plan> perhaps
[2026-03-31T21:28:45Z] <midfavila> that would be a cool thing to do
[2026-03-31T21:28:54Z] <sad_plan> I kept seeing this being an issue with webkit 4.0 and 4.1 aswell
[2026-03-31T21:29:18Z] <sad_plan> yeah, Ill take a look at it later this week. I need to update my conty anyway
[2026-03-31T21:29:32Z] <midfavila> aaaaaaa i'm so frustrated that i can't spend more time on this stuff
[2026-03-31T21:31:00Z] <sad_plan> whats stopping you? work?
[2026-03-31T21:31:30Z] <midfavila> yeah
[2026-03-31T21:31:39Z] <midfavila> lots of responsibilities
[2026-03-31T21:31:42Z] <kris_> what cron impl do you guys use
[2026-03-31T21:31:43Z] <sad_plan> too much of it I assume?
[2026-03-31T21:31:49Z] <midfavila> kris_: scron
[2026-03-31T21:31:50Z] <sad_plan> kris_: none
[2026-03-31T21:31:54Z] <midfavila> sad_plan: far too much
[2026-03-31T21:32:01Z] <kris_> was looking at scron
[2026-03-31T21:32:03Z] <sad_plan> midfavila: I see..
[2026-03-31T21:32:13Z] <sad_plan> kris_: just use sbase already. comes with scron
[2026-03-31T21:32:16Z] <midfavila> i usually work like sixteen hours a day 5-6 days a week
[2026-03-31T21:32:32Z] <midfavila> between my jobs, commuting, and community obligations
[2026-03-31T21:32:32Z] <sad_plan> damn, thats rough mid
[2026-03-31T21:32:42Z] <midfavila> then sunday is chore day 
[2026-03-31T21:32:46Z] <midfavila> yeah it sucks
[2026-03-31T21:32:56Z] <midfavila> last weekend i slept nearly 30 hours 
[2026-03-31T21:33:10Z] <sad_plan> damn
[2026-03-31T21:33:11Z] <midfavila> i had to call out of stuff on sat
[2026-03-31T21:33:18Z] <sad_plan> youre going to get worn out quickly like this
[2026-03-31T21:33:31Z] <midfavila> i've been doing it for eight months or so, i figured that out already, lol
[2026-03-31T21:33:47Z] <midfavila> unfortunately, you know
[2026-03-31T21:33:52Z] * midfavila gestures at the global economy 
[2026-03-31T21:34:13Z] <kris_> this guy is employed
[2026-03-31T21:34:23Z] <midfavila> yeah i'm too employed to keep up these days
[2026-03-31T21:34:40Z] <midfavila> yelling on irc with one hand doing paperwork with the other
[2026-03-31T21:34:42Z] <midfavila> i'm a real pro
[2026-03-31T21:34:54Z] <sad_plan> a real multitasker
[2026-03-31T21:35:21Z] <kris_> maybe i should just write a cron daemon in shell
[2026-03-31T21:35:32Z] <midfavila> kris_:  there *is* a spec for cron
[2026-03-31T21:35:37Z] <midfavila> might as well try
[2026-03-31T21:36:33Z] <kris_> wouldnt even be difficult tbh
[2026-03-31T21:36:35Z] <midfavila> i need to switch to a different email provider ugh
[2026-03-31T21:36:40Z] <midfavila> proton is garbage
[2026-03-31T21:36:42Z] <sad_plan> wait, in aur, it says uzbl-browser depends on webkit2gtk, not webkit1. this means maybe I can get it working locally
[2026-03-31T21:36:57Z] <kris_> i've been using tutanota for a while now
[2026-03-31T21:36:59Z] <midfavila> literally uses like 1.25gb of memory on its own 
[2026-03-31T21:37:14Z] <midfavila> and i can't get mail over pop or imap unless i pay them 
[2026-03-31T21:37:18Z] <midfavila> which i'm not fucking doing
[2026-03-31T21:37:22Z] <kris_> you can
[2026-03-31T21:37:26Z] <kris_> you just have to host the bridge
[2026-03-31T21:37:30Z] <sad_plan> ive been meaning to switch to tuta for some time, because I honestly dont like the fact that proton keeps creating this ecosystem of theirs...
[2026-03-31T21:37:40Z] <sad_plan> or something else, I dunno, but i know tuta is decent
[2026-03-31T21:37:45Z] <midfavila> reminder that the US government kills people over metadata
[2026-03-31T21:37:49Z] <kris_> i pay like $3/mo for tutanota premium
[2026-03-31T21:37:59Z] <midfavila> i'm not paying for email
[2026-03-31T21:38:01Z] <kris_> just so i get to use my fancy custom domains
[2026-03-31T21:38:13Z] <midfavila> the phone companies are lucky i'm willing to pay for a fcking phone number still
[2026-03-31T21:38:39Z] <midfavila> nobody calls me yet i'm supposed to shill out fifty fucking dollars a month for a phone number
[2026-03-31T21:38:42Z] <midfavila> fuck off
[2026-03-31T21:39:05Z] <midfavila> that's 600 dollars a year all to meet some arbitrary societal expectation that doesn't benefit me at all
[2026-03-31T21:39:12Z] <midfavila> PLUS TAXES
[2026-03-31T21:39:21Z] <midfavila> if it's so goddamn essential you shouldn't tax me on it
[2026-03-31T21:39:27Z] <midfavila> >.>
[2026-03-31T21:39:47Z] <midfavila> what is this the uk where they tax your friggin food
[2026-03-31T21:40:09Z] <midfavila> kris_ does america food
[2026-03-31T21:40:14Z] <midfavila> tax food
[2026-03-31T21:40:48Z] <kris_> im pretty sure sales tax is applied to it like anything else
[2026-03-31T21:41:00Z] <midfavila> that's disgusting
[2026-03-31T21:41:04Z] <midfavila> why aren't you protesting
[2026-03-31T21:41:13Z] <kris_> yeah taxes in general tend to be pretty disgusting
[2026-03-31T21:41:25Z] <midfavila> the government here only taxes prepared food and packaged snacks
[2026-03-31T21:41:44Z] <midfavila> tea, coffee, and staple goods like bread, sugar, etcetera are all explicitly exempt by law
[2026-03-31T21:42:35Z] <midfavila> of course, certain prepared foods, like from delis, should also be exempt
[2026-03-31T21:42:44Z] <midfavila> but i would be in favour of a sugar tax
[2026-03-31T21:43:04Z] <midfavila> like on added sugars not on raw sugar or whatever
[2026-03-31T21:43:39Z] <sewn> hi midfavila 
[2026-03-31T21:43:50Z] <midfavila> hi sewn
[2026-03-31T21:46:23Z] <kris_> wow mid gets a hi but i don't
[2026-03-31T21:46:31Z] <kris_> midfavila: i think i'm going to just use snooze, cron is a bit shit anyway
[2026-03-31T21:46:48Z] <midfavila> cron is fine
[2026-03-31T21:47:52Z] <sewn> hi deltarune kris
[2026-03-31T21:48:19Z] <kris_> midfavila: snooze >
[2026-03-31T22:23:37Z] <sad_plan> midfavila: stop complaining. here everything has a flat 25% tax on everything, then theres additional taxes on certain goods, like alchohol, products containing sugars, tobacco, diesel, gas etc etc.. taking this into account I pay above 50% in tax on my salary
[2026-03-31T22:24:03Z] <sad_plan> taxation is theft
[2026-03-31T22:24:14Z] <midfavila> if tax is theft then so is profit :D
[2026-03-31T22:24:27Z] <sad_plan> elaborate
[2026-03-31T22:25:11Z] <midfavila> if i work for an hour and produce 20$ worth of goods or services, and my boss takes 5$ in profit, what's the difference for me in real terms between that 25% surplus value he takes off the top and the government taking 25%?
[2026-03-31T22:25:29Z] <midfavila> at least the government's taxation plays into controlling inflation and ensuring money for public services exists
[2026-03-31T22:25:37Z] <midfavila> profit is nothing but unpaid wages
[2026-03-31T22:32:05Z] <midfavila> also,
[2026-03-31T22:32:08Z] <midfavila> for the record,
[2026-03-31T22:32:17Z] <midfavila> social programmes aren't a form of charity or a hand-out
[2026-03-31T22:32:26Z] <sad_plan> atleast taxation is involentarily. its taken at gunpoint.
[2026-03-31T22:32:31Z] <midfavila> social programmes tend to improve the productivity of the working class
[2026-03-31T22:32:37Z] <midfavila> that means social programmes benefit capitalists
[2026-03-31T22:32:40Z] <midfavila> also alos
[2026-03-31T22:32:42Z] <midfavila> also also*
[2026-03-31T22:32:49Z] <sad_plan> initially im not thinking profit is theft here, but if you view profit as unpaid wages, then perhaps yes
[2026-03-31T22:32:52Z] <midfavila> employment is strictly coercive
[2026-03-31T22:32:57Z] <midfavila> if i don't have a job then i fucking die
[2026-03-31T22:33:05Z] <midfavila> i literally cannot go grow my own food
[2026-03-31T22:33:12Z] <midfavila> i am not legally permitted to live in the woods 
[2026-03-31T22:33:27Z] <midfavila> that's one of the primary things that differentiates capitalism from feudalism
[2026-03-31T22:33:46Z] <sad_plan> isnt that because you dont own the land? isnt this were the line is drawn? if you owned the land, there wouldnt be an issue?
[2026-03-31T22:34:01Z] <midfavila> the enclosure of the commons upon which peasants lived subsistence lifestyles led to the proletarianisation of the peasantry
[2026-03-31T22:34:12Z] <midfavila> i mean 
[2026-03-31T22:34:25Z] <midfavila> if the land upon which people depended was owned collectively that's just communism
[2026-03-31T22:34:28Z] <midfavila> or socialism 
[2026-03-31T22:34:33Z] <midfavila> depending on whether there's a state
[2026-03-31T22:34:46Z] <midfavila> or feudalism if the state is owned by a landlord 
[2026-03-31T22:34:51Z] <midfavila> er
[2026-03-31T22:34:51Z] <midfavila> land
[2026-03-31T22:35:16Z] <midfavila> so the idea that the wage relationship is voluntary is a farce
[2026-03-31T22:35:37Z] <sad_plan> I dont see how that answers my question
[2026-03-31T22:36:08Z] <midfavila> the simple answer is that if people were in control of the *means of production* - including land - then there would be no issue
[2026-03-31T22:36:31Z] <midfavila> they could control what work is done, by whom, how, and to what extent, and the fruits of their labours could be shared in a democratic fashion 
[2026-03-31T22:36:53Z] <sad_plan> its volutary elsewhere, just not in canada, because the social supportsystem isnt robust enough for you to take weeks or even months of because of any reason. if I get sick, I can be away from work for months, and Id still get paid for just being home
[2026-03-31T22:37:03Z] <midfavila> under capitalism, the means of production, including land, are held privately, and profit, rent, and taxes - usually given to capitalists - are extracted from workers under threat of death or imprisonment
[2026-03-31T22:37:18Z] <midfavila> sad_plan: your wages on that time off are paid for by norway's exploitation of the global south
[2026-03-31T22:37:31Z] <midfavila> social-democracy is simply a bribe to convince workers that capitalism works
[2026-03-31T22:38:09Z] <sad_plan> or by the goverment stealing a large portion of my salary
[2026-03-31T22:38:10Z] <midfavila> the second the developing world throws off the yoke of european-american colonialism social democratic systems collapse 
[2026-03-31T22:38:27Z] <midfavila> the government serves your employer
[2026-03-31T22:38:54Z] <midfavila> were it not for the government under capitalism serving your employer, and your employer withholding the means by which you make a living from you, you could have the full value of your labour
[2026-03-31T22:39:03Z] <midfavila> this goes for all working people 
[2026-03-31T22:39:43Z] <midfavila> there would be more than enough for everyone were it not for a tiny fraction of the human population hoarding literally trillions of dollars, in cash, assets, and through their control of global governments 
[2026-03-31T22:40:12Z] <midfavila> like come on elon musk could afford to buy two entire south africas with a couple billion left over
[2026-03-31T22:40:23Z] <midfavila> while that country struggles to heat and light itself
[2026-03-31T22:40:25Z] <midfavila> that's insane
[2026-03-31T22:40:51Z] <midfavila> we could permanently eliminate food insecurity everywhere for a mere ten billion or so a year 
[2026-03-31T22:41:14Z] <midfavila> iirc the UN or WHO or something did a study on that
[2026-03-31T22:41:29Z] <midfavila> we could also afford to work *way* less than we already do
[2026-03-31T22:41:38Z] <midfavila> and we could *choose* to do that, more importantly
[2026-03-31T22:41:56Z] <sad_plan> i knoow. the monerary inequality is just absurdly large...
[2026-03-31T22:42:07Z] <midfavila> capitalism makes such affairs inevitable
[2026-03-31T22:42:15Z] <midfavila> it also makes fascism and colonialism inevitable
[2026-03-31T22:42:32Z] <midfavila> when consumers can't afford to buy any more, the economy falls apart, so you need to create new markets
[2026-03-31T22:42:38Z] <sad_plan> while some people have so much mone that they cant even spend it all, others cant even put food on the table, let alone have a table, or roof over their head. not to mention proper clothes
[2026-03-31T22:42:55Z] <midfavila> either by colonising foreign lands and installing capitalism there, or by destroying markets through permanent war ala fascism
[2026-03-31T22:43:36Z] <midfavila> the real tragedy isn't even about money
[2026-03-31T22:43:40Z] <midfavila> it's that we literally have enough
[2026-03-31T22:43:49Z] <midfavila> we have enormous amounts of food waste and clothing waste
[2026-03-31T22:44:15Z] <midfavila> it's just that companies would rather throw things away *and take tax handouts from the government to write it off* than give it to those in need
[2026-03-31T22:44:38Z] <midfavila> because if people *weren't* at risk of starving, freezing, or dying of disease or whatever, then they would be less willing to take shit jobs
[2026-03-31T22:44:43Z] <midfavila> that drives up wages and reduces profits
[2026-03-31T22:44:59Z] <midfavila> hence capitalism has an inbuilt incentive to make conditions for workers as unbearable as possible
[2026-03-31T22:45:22Z] <midfavila> this also permits landlords to be negligent to their tenants for example
[2026-03-31T22:45:37Z] <midfavila> you'll work a shit job and take a barely-habitable apartment if it's the difference between living and dying
[2026-03-31T22:45:46Z] <midfavila> :\
[2026-03-31T22:48:41Z] <midfavila> hey remember when this was a linux channel
[2026-03-31T22:50:41Z] <sad_plan> its awefull, is what it is really. 
[2026-03-31T22:51:08Z] <sad_plan> lol, yeah i know. but like kris_ said, kisslinux is rearly a topic being talked about here. ironically