[2026-04-25T00:20:06Z] midfavila: what are you doing with debian [2026-04-25T00:20:22Z] i dont envy you whatever you're up to, debian is the most nightmarish system ever for me [2026-04-25T00:20:52Z] or well, honestly, probably 3rd nightmarish behind fedora and opensuse [2026-04-25T01:18:08Z] working on my pinenote [2026-04-25T01:18:18Z] the standard system images are either debian or pmos [2026-04-25T01:18:21Z] with gnome [2026-04-25T01:18:23Z] * midfavila retches [2026-04-25T01:18:52Z] i appreciate the kernel-level stuff people have done because i'm not at the point of writing drivers or anything like that yet but their userspace work is... [2026-04-25T01:18:55Z] ...not the best [2026-04-25T01:18:59Z] for the debian image [2026-04-25T01:19:03Z] then of course you have to deal with apt [2026-04-25T01:19:16Z] which is... [2026-04-25T01:19:19Z] * midfavila retches a little more [2026-04-25T01:54:15Z] honestly apt is the least of my concerns with debian [2026-04-25T02:19:47Z] i just don't use debian [2026-04-25T02:19:49Z] i have slackware [2026-04-25T02:20:10Z] i see no reason to ever use debian or anything akin to it while slack exists [2026-04-25T02:20:17Z] same with arch/gentoo/etc when kiss exists [2026-04-25T02:20:18Z] or crux [2026-04-25T02:20:23Z] although i prefer kiss to crux [2026-04-25T02:23:51Z] crux is crusty [2026-04-25T02:24:08Z] idk how it actually is but browsing their gitea gave me a stroke because i have zero idea what is there that's still in use [2026-04-25T03:02:12Z] https://www.phoronix.com/news/Linux-7.1-JFS [2026-04-25T03:02:17Z] year of the JFS desktop [2026-04-25T03:02:20Z] let's gooooooooooooooooo [2026-04-25T03:02:28Z] zfs and xfs chuds move over [2026-04-25T03:02:44Z] kris_ wdym by "still in use" [2026-04-25T03:02:47Z] like their packages? [2026-04-25T03:10:47Z] i think he means its a huge mess. lots of repos. so its not easy to actually see whats actually being used at first glance [2026-04-25T03:12:04Z] they do have lots of repos atleast. regardless if thats what he meant or not [2026-04-25T03:13:03Z] oh [2026-04-25T03:13:04Z] fair [2026-04-25T03:13:11Z] i'm drainbead atm [2026-04-25T03:15:44Z] ditto. im so god damn tired. cant wait to get home and go to bed [2026-04-25T03:15:53Z] another hour to go, and off I go [2026-04-25T03:15:57Z] you're still at work? damn [2026-04-25T03:15:58Z] that sucks [2026-04-25T03:16:25Z] 5 in the morning now. but yeah, working night today [2026-04-25T03:16:40Z] gross :x [2026-04-25T03:16:46Z] otherwise id probably be dead asleep [2026-04-25T03:16:52Z] i'll only take shift work if there's a huge premium these days [2026-04-25T03:17:02Z] health cost just isn't worth it [2026-04-25T03:17:21Z] yeah, I kinda wanna stop working shift. I dont like the health costs it brings tbh [2026-04-25T03:18:03Z] ive read you can loose up to 15 years on shift work. im assuming its based on working shift most of your life though [2026-04-25T03:18:47Z] yeah it's a cumulative thing [2026-04-25T03:18:52Z] which kinda scares me somewhat. I dont wanna die 15 years too early just for a small amount of extra money, while also not being able to come to things I want to because I have to work weekends and so on [2026-04-25T03:18:56Z] it's like eating a lot of red or processed meat [2026-04-25T03:19:10Z] yeah [2026-04-25T03:19:33Z] but yeah if i'm doing shift work it's because it pays amazingly well lol [2026-04-25T03:19:43Z] like you said it's not worth the schedule [2026-04-25T03:20:41Z] yeah it kinda just adds up on the negative. the only benefit here is having a week of every other and every 2 weeks according to my plan. which obviously is very nice. I can take 1 week of work, and get 3, because theres a week of before and after [2026-04-25T03:22:06Z] that's something! [2026-04-25T03:22:24Z] what i would kill for is a remote job that has flexible scheduling [2026-04-25T03:22:28Z] i don't even need an insane salary [2026-04-25T03:22:54Z] i'm just tired of taking hours and hours every day just to commute to work and sit in one place and do nothing but answer phonecalls and send emails [2026-04-25T03:22:59Z] i can do that from home xwx [2026-04-25T03:23:29Z] remote job would be amazing, but I dont have the correct education. and IT jobs are getting increasingly more difficult to get these days too. so actually taking any education kinda makes less and less sense [2026-04-25T03:23:33Z] atleast to me [2026-04-25T03:23:58Z] I agree. this is something that can be done in the comfort of your own home [2026-04-25T03:24:26Z] tbqh with you i've been thinking on and off about just... [2026-04-25T03:24:30Z] ...not getting a job? [2026-04-25T03:24:43Z] i would much rather work on free software projects as a volunteer and ask for donations as such [2026-04-25T03:25:10Z] nothing would make me happier than to be able to work on, say, cproc, or pcc, or qbe, or some of the suckless-style stuff [2026-04-25T03:25:14Z] or kiss for that matter [2026-04-25T03:25:29Z] or work on little open hardware projects... [2026-04-25T03:26:25Z] 'cause like i have to wonder how many people work on free software in smaller communities full time [2026-04-25T03:26:28Z] i can't imagine many [2026-04-25T03:26:41Z] usually people who manage to work on free software work on like, linux, or gnome, or ubuntu or whatever [2026-04-25T03:26:45Z] big projects [2026-04-25T03:27:00Z] not having a job would be amazing. id love to not have a job, but thats not really a possiblity for me. I need the money for food/bills etc.. [2026-04-25T03:27:47Z] people work on grapheneOS fulltime, which to me sounds amazing. theyre getting paid to do something theyre really interested in. atleast in thought. im sure it gets tiresome regardless [2026-04-25T03:28:13Z] but it could be something else like linux/gnome like you mentioned too [2026-04-25T03:32:53Z] midfavila: shit ton of repos, sad_plan is correct as to what i meant [2026-04-25T03:33:03Z] it's difficult for me to understand what's in use there as an external observer [2026-04-25T03:34:43Z] sad_plan: unless canada introduces a ubi i'll still need at least a part time job xwx [2026-04-25T03:35:01Z] there's a bill in the senate that's doing well enough i suppose but i doubt that canada would put it through [2026-04-25T03:35:19Z] canada is so close to having a not-shit social safety net but man every time we blow it [2026-04-25T03:35:23Z] kris_: fair enough [2026-04-25T03:36:21Z] god freebsd jails are hot [2026-04-25T03:36:30Z] i know you dont like freebsd but this is the nicest container setup ive ever had [2026-04-25T03:37:01Z] its also cute seeing messages pop up in my terminal from my friends [2026-04-25T03:37:20Z] (freebsd apparently has a tips thing enabled by default so when you log into a normal user itll tell you how to do something neat written by random contributors) [2026-04-25T03:37:44Z] first one i get is from one of my very close friends and idk im cheap [2026-04-25T03:48:04Z] idk it's fun to get fortunes from people you know [2026-04-25T03:48:09Z] we used to have a #kisslinux fortunes file [2026-04-25T03:48:23Z] sad_plan: btw have you seen the reports of people getting fired for refusing to use AI lmao [2026-04-25T03:49:55Z] midfavila: im not sold on the whole ubi thing. what stops the elite from just taking everything if they now control your salary too? I just rememer seeing some content about why this was a terrible idea. I dont really recall the arguments though.. [2026-04-25T03:50:08Z] midfavila: no lol, but im not supprised by that [2026-04-25T03:50:46Z] sad_plan: the capitalist class already owns everything [2026-04-25T03:50:55Z] all they have to do is just refuse to do business with you [2026-04-25T03:50:56Z] lol [2026-04-25T03:51:07Z] UBI is ultimately a pro-capitalist policy [2026-04-25T03:51:26Z] it's the only way to somewhat feasibly ward off crises of overproduction created by the wage race to the bottom [2026-04-25T03:52:08Z] my main contention with UBI is that under capitalism it's literally a bribe to the working class to please not do a socialism [2026-04-25T03:53:03Z] any analysis that doesn't start from knowing that under capitalism the state serves capitalists is amaterial [2026-04-25T03:53:57Z] well sure they do. but I cant help to think that if peoples basic needs are met with ubi, why should they now bother to work? this would make the marked crumble because people just dont wanna work anymore [2026-04-25T03:55:05Z] lol no [2026-04-25T03:55:21Z] people still need money to buy commodities [2026-04-25T03:55:28Z] beyond food and shelter and such [2026-04-25T03:55:32Z] also [2026-04-25T03:55:50Z] i don't think the whole "if we don't threaten to starve and freeze and throw people out of hospitals then they won't work" is a good thing to say [2026-04-25T03:55:57Z] if you want to maintain capitalist systems [2026-04-25T03:56:01Z] it's kind of an own-goal [2026-04-25T03:56:13Z] anyway, canada has already down UBI pilots [2026-04-25T03:57:00Z] the only people who stopped working entirely were people who went back to school, were pregnant or new parents, very young people, or people who wanted to take a risky venture like starting a small business [2026-04-25T03:57:04Z] (or artists) [2026-04-25T03:57:21Z] s/down/done/ [2026-04-25T03:57:51Z] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mincome#Results [2026-04-25T03:57:52Z] I was under the assumtion here that an ubi would cover this. which would make less people work. but if it doesnt cover much besides a roof over your head and, I dunno, food? people would still need to work, but people would work less. which I still belive would in some way or another hurt the market [2026-04-25T03:58:31Z] okay but like [2026-04-25T03:58:32Z] why do you care [2026-04-25T03:58:33Z] lmao [2026-04-25T03:58:39Z] the market only matters if it serves the common good [2026-04-25T03:58:50Z] it's not some sort of god that we need to appease lest we be smited [2026-04-25T03:59:01Z] I dont initially care about the market, but if things crumble, everyone loses [2026-04-25T03:59:04Z] atleast at first [2026-04-25T03:59:12Z] the only people who can cause things to crumble are the owning class [2026-04-25T03:59:22Z] people who have a need will always work towards meeting that need [2026-04-25T03:59:28Z] whether it's a survival need or a fulfillment need [2026-04-25T03:59:44Z] whether that means working for wages or working directly to produce that commodity [2026-04-25T04:00:06Z] it's only the owning class that parasitises the rest of us [2026-04-25T04:00:31Z] fair enough [2026-04-25T04:00:47Z] finally, time to go home [2026-04-25T04:00:52Z] t2yl [2026-04-25T04:01:01Z] ttyl [2026-04-25T16:34:51Z] midfavila: Did you figure out the correct format for encoding dependency relationships, when using tsort(1) from GNU coreutils to derive the total ordering? The first line of the "clean example" in https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=990854 might not be what you want to follow, when encoding more than one dependency. [2026-04-25T16:39:01Z] farkuhar: nah, i think i just misunderstand the purpose of tsort. it's more than likely user error. i've been peeking at the bboard now and again, i just haven't bothered to actually type out a response [2026-04-25T16:40:15Z] i just thought it was odd that POSIX provides test input and an expected output and most implementations seem to differ from that expected output [2026-04-25T16:40:30Z] but if there's more than one valid output then that would be my bad [2026-04-25T16:42:07Z] midfavila: That report has been sitting 5 years in the Debian bugtracker without any comments, but your bboard thread got knowledgeable replies in a matter of days. [2026-04-25T16:42:56Z] yeah i should have replied to be a little more respectful of everyone's time >.< [2026-04-25T16:43:01Z] i'll write something up in the next few minutes [2026-04-25T16:44:01Z] i find SDF to be a more valuable resource than most of the internet these days, to be honest with you. [2026-04-25T16:51:38Z] If the POSIX test input looks anything like the "clean example" in the Debian bug report, then the GNU coreutils implementation might be deviating from the POSIX spec by reading its input one pair at a time, separated by blanks. Conforming to its own man-page is not enough, if you also expect conformance to the POSIX spec. [2026-04-25T16:55:50Z] yes, the "clean example" is copied from tsort(1p) [2026-04-25T16:55:53Z] https://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009696799/utilities/tsort.html [2026-04-25T16:56:58Z] unicorn mentioned that that is mentioned in posix, though, so it's likely i just misunderstood [2026-04-25T16:57:45Z] "The application shall ensure that the input consists of pairs of items (non-empty strings) separated by s." [2026-04-25T16:59:18Z] by their figuring that means "a b c c d e\ng g\nf g e f\nh h" should be equivalent to "a b\nc c\nd e\ng g\nf g\ne f\nh h\n" [2026-04-25T17:00:48Z] that seems to be true for nbsd tsort [2026-04-25T17:00:52Z] but not suckless' tsort [2026-04-25T17:01:33Z] so then it's possible that suckless is deviating from posix? that would make more sense, as i originally suspected that, considering they're a much smaller team than gnu or the bsds etc [2026-04-25T17:02:50Z] yeah it also seems to be the case for gnu. so that means it's most likely that suckless is in violation of the posix spec. i'll have to fiddle with it and see if i can get a better version. maybe submit a patch to them. [2026-04-25T17:06:25Z] i think my issue stems more from the partial ordering(?) not being preserved, however... at least going off the original debian issue [2026-04-25T17:21:49Z] Well, if the POSIX spec itself allows for more than one pair to appear on each line, then it's permissible to interpret the input "a b c c d e" as only three conditions (none of them specifying where c, d, or e appears in relation to a). So you can't expect the final output to preserve the "partial ordering" that a naive reading of that line would suggest. [2026-04-25T17:23:03Z] yeah. [2026-04-25T17:23:18Z] as i said, this is more than likely a case of pebkac. [2026-04-25T17:26:32Z] I'll need to open your thread again to see what the suckless implementation returned. Maybe it's another perfectly valid ordering, and no bug report is needed. [2026-04-25T17:43:35Z] maybe [2026-04-25T21:26:03Z] funny how I switched rc implementation to the 9front one, and now I have lots of zombie processes all of a sudden. time to redo my scripts it seems to make things exit properly it seems.